A Fine Fine Line.../Karmic Debt

[incenseNpepRmints]

I bounce all over the place when I write, but I eventually land the plane. Promise

A few people and I were talking about spells and we hit a soft spot (meaning we started to argue lol). What got us talking was a spell I did a few years back for the forgiveness of an ex-friend. I was immediately yelled at before I had the chance to explain the circumstances of my situation or the outcome - all I got was that I was messing around with someone's free will (technically, I wasn't, had they listened to me - but I was told that "the Universe doesn't care about loopholes") and Karma would come back to me times ten**. I guess I'm curious where's the line between infringing on someone's free will or not? For instance, "stop gossip" spells - wouldn't that be considered infringing on someone's free will (we may not appreciate the gossip but "they" are unfortunately free to say what they want)? And, in terms of Karma, when you send out positive "vibes" (for lack of a better term) - whether they be in a spell for healing or anything positive, can NEGATIVE "vibes" be sent back? I was always under the impression that you get what you give times three, but recently I was informed differently. Anyway, thanks for reading this!!



**In the end, the Universe knew what it was doing before I even cast the spell. It didn't work because that person didn't need to be in my life and I thank Goddess for helping me learn what I should have known before everything happened how it did. (Just saying what I wasn't given a chance to say before, hope you all don't mind! lol)

[Greek_Male_Witch]

My view on the subject is that if you do something bad to someone that never harmed you, then you will get your karma, but meaningless stuff like "Forgive me" spells, are not something Universe cares about, if we take the law literally then we should not cast spells, because as you said, then everything affects free will!

[Symandinome]

technically making someone stop gossiping is effecting their free will. Things coming back ten fold is a bit excessive I would say. Generally it is believed that it returns to you times 3. I would like to point out though that this is just a belief and there is no concrete evidence anywhere to support this. Ultimately you have to decided what is morally right and wrong for yourself. As long as you are secure in what you have done and in knowning that you think it is the right thing to do then you shouldnt concern yourself with "potential" consequences that may or may not happen.

Like Greek said if we take that rule sooo literally then any spell would be potentially be working against anothers free will. For example you decide your going to make it rain today well the lady down the street is getting married outside today also but you made it rain and now she cant have an outside wedding. You werent trying to effect her free will but in essence what you did did effect her free will to have her wedding outside. SO where do you draw the line??? YOU CANT. That is why you have to decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong. There are many flaws in the concept of the rule of three because it is not just for magick it is for all things. For example lets say you were one of the suicide bombers from the 9/11 attacks on America. Obviously most people would agree that what those people did was "bad" but that person died too. If we do not receive our punishments in the next life but instead have to deal with them in this life, how then does a person who commits an atrocity able to receive their retribution in this life since they are dead themself?

Really the law of three is a moral code more so than a LAW. It is there to cause you to think about your actions from all different perspectives before you act on them. It is there to get you to atleast always TRY to strive to do things for the higher good and the betterment of humanity. This also brings into question what is "good" and what is "bad" how can any of us really know for sure. DO we just base this on what the world generally accepts to be good and bad or do we chose for ourselves to decided. If you ask the majority of christians they would say that pagans are "bad" or "evil" but if you ask us we would say nothing could be further from the truth. In like fashion, if we did a spell to make someone lose their job obviously we would commonly think this is a "bad" thing but what if the peson losing that job allowed for a woman with 3 starving kids to get that job and now the kids arent hungry Does it then become an act of positive magick? How can you be punished or rewarded for that either way.

Most would argue and I would have to agree that it would fall onto the "INTENT" of your magick. The Gods are both CREATIVE and DESTRUCTIVE. An example once given to me is with the Goddess Kali from Indian culture. She could easily be seen as just as a destructive force but for many she is a Mother and Goddess of Creation. She may demonlish an entire city *which would be the "bad" but in its place comes a beautiful garden, "the good". Chances are if your doing a spell to make someone lose their job its not because your thinking about the woman down the street with starving kids but because your pissed off and want to ruin some jerks day. This is where your magick would be negative despite the fact that good can come out of it.

The belief of like attracts like is something that has been a common held belief amongst every culture throughout time. This part I cannot argue against it is apparent in everything we do. If we smile at someone we usually will get a smile back if we say "screw you" to someone then we usually get a "screw you" right back at us. Like does attract like and this is where the deeper formations of that came into exsitence in the embodiment of Karma and the Law of 3. Whether or not we get back 3 times the good or 3 times the bad remains to be seen and is ultimately a matter of interpretation. What we learn from this though is that we always need to consider the possibilities of our actions at all times both magickal and mundane because LIKE DOES ATTRACT LIKE. In knowning this we can be secure that so long as we are doing things with POSITIVE INTENT then we are safe from negative returning back to us.

The best you can do is to always think before you speak, think before you do, and trust that when you do you have done things with the best intent behind them and not what is "best" for just you.

[incenseNpepRmints]

@Greek and @Symand- Thank you both. You all don't know how much you've put my mind at ease. I was told that the Universe doesn't give a crap about intent because it's about what you did - not what was in your heart (when I've always felt the exact opposite). Because I don't know many people who practice and I find I've ruffled their feathers on such a basic issue, I guess I wondered how much of "Wicca 101" I'd misinterpreted after all these years lol.

When it comes to MY basic tenets of Karma, spellwork, etc., I guess I just know now to play my cards a little closer to the vest as to keep from being judged so quickly.

[Symandinome]

your welcome. I am sure there is alot of people that will disagree with what i said to you but i tried to remain objective on the subject and argue it from both sides. Truth is that no one really knows anything for sure we can just guess and do what we think is best. Just like the bible didnt fall from the sky neither did a book of shadows with this type of information either. Be true to your self and what you think is right and to hell with the consequences. Be mature, be responsible, and be objective.

[connor)O(]

My opinion is that magick can be used for nearly all matters without any "debt" Let's say that you were raped, (touchy subject) and all it took was a spell to make sure this person could never do it to anyone else (impotency) would you run around letting them rape people because of some stupid impractical law? Or would you cast the spell knowing that you had potentially saved a hundred people from the amount of horror that could have occurred? I believe Magick can be used as a weapon when it is needed most, if magick is just an extension of all that is natural, yet we are not supposed to use it for defense, then ask yourself this question. Why do roses have thorns? Why are some plants poisonous? Why do animals fight for survival? If we are a path so dedicated to nature, why stray from the most basic laws? Blessings )O(

[Greek_Male_Witch]

Universe always might the intent, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, if you curse someone so she can die and you take her place on a beauty pageant then yes Universe will kick your a$$, but if you curse someone you know he/she is going to harm a lot of people (and you are absolutely sure he/she will) then Universe probably won't punish you, don't freak out, and don't let others affect your beliefs, listen to your gut when you do a spell...

[Melindrose]

What will be will be good bad what ever a spell asking for forgiveness is not any different than actually asking for forgiveness unless it compels them to forgive you. If you take the harm none to the extreme then you wind up not doing any spells because all of the spells affect somebody some way