meditation...

[Sobek]

i have a bit of trouble meditating as well. but when i do get my mind blank and i almost get into the meditative state i kinda sieze up a little and come back too. its a real pain because im getting so close.

[Raine]

i have a bit of trouble meditating as well. but when i do get my mind blank and i almost get into the meditative state i kinda sieze up a little and come back too. its a real pain because im getting so close.

I've had that happen to me too!

I do have trouble meditating too. I tried last night and I managed to empty my mind and then something happened and I was back to the beginning trying to empty my mind again.

[thatguy]

i have a bit of trouble meditating as well. but when i do get my mind blank and i almost get into the meditative state i kinda sieze up a little and come back too. its a real pain because im getting so close.

I've had that happen to me too!

I do have trouble meditating too. I tried last night and I managed to empty my mind and then something happened and I was back to the beginning trying to empty my mind again.

I want to point out that emptying the mind is only one form of meditation, but I can offer a couple helpful hints:

1) Just don't do anything, your mind will empty itself if you just wait. This is trickier than it sounds. Basically, when thoughts arise, you have to refrain from emphasizing them, denying them, contending with them or holding on to them. Just let them come and go; don't do anything but gently observe. Thoughts that seem to arise from itchiness, discomfort, pain or natural impulses like swallowing, breathing, passing wind etc. are sometimes hard to leave alone. However, you really can refrain from doing anything with them, and if you do, they will also naturally subside.

2) Expecting to enter some sort of 'meditative state' is a thought itself, if you're holding on to this thought you prevent your mind from naturally emptying.

3) Don't be surprised if when you succeed in letting your mind empty (including letting go of thoughts like you are a human being with a life that has been lived) that your consciousness is interrupted and you find yourself in unfamiliar surroundings. Don't be afraid, at some point you'll probably come to in your normal reality like you just woke up. I really have no idea what this is but I guess you can put names on it if you want.

Anyways, that's just my advice for this type of meditation. I'm not an expert or anything like that. I find reality weird and incomprehensible just like the rest of you.

cheers,

T. Guy.

P. S.

I meditate every night before going to bed. Doesn't matter how long it takes. The best way to do it I find is to take in a breath to the count of 4 (I use my heartbeats to keep count), hold it for 2, let it out for 4, hold it for 2, and repeat. Eventually I start feeling like I'm slowly falling downards.

This sounds like a modern western breathing form used to prepare for astral projection and during chakra work. Is it also meant to be used as a meditation? I really don't know, I'm still fairly ignorant of how witches are introduced to meditation outside a particular purpose like astral projection.

[sagart]

Tinu wrote:
I meditate every night before going to bed. Doesn't matter how long it takes. The best way to do it I find is to take in a breath to the count of 4 (I use my heartbeats to keep count), hold it for 2, let it out for 4, hold it for 2, and repeat. Eventually I start feeling like I'm slowly falling downards.

This sounds like a modern western breathing form used to prepare for astral projection and during chakra work. Is it also meant to be used as a meditation? I really don't know, I'm still fairly ignorant of how witches are introduced to meditation outside a particular purpose like astral projection.

This is a well known technique in pranayama, which is much older than any Western breathing techniques I'm familiar with. Certainly, that doesn't mean someone can't figure it out on his own , but it's pretty well associated with yoga.

Concerning emptying the mind...

My Buddhist teachers (and Buddhists are thought to be the masters of meditation) do not recommend trying to empty the mind by either active or passive techniques. In Tibetan Buddhism in particular, the nature of mind is radiance and is constantly producing new things. Zen masters might slap you or attempt murder if you said you wanted to empty your mind.

The idea is that discursive thoughts follow these little blips. For instance, when I feel pins and needles in my legs after an hour of sitting, I have a few options. One is to simply observe and know the sensation for what it is. Another option is to lament my situation and wish that I had gone to the movies instead of sitting in meditation.

By cutting off the train of thoughts that follow an impulse or a sensation, we find that our thoughts are fewer and far between and that we can fill up all of that empty space, if needs be, with concentration and more careful attention.

To the original question, however, the goal determines the type of meditation. Do you want to work on negative emotions? Your inability to concentrate or stay mindful? Your racing thoughts? Do you want to work on calming the body? If visualization practice is what you're looking for, you may find that meditation per se may not be the best practice for you. Practicing visualization might.

There are thousands on thousands of techniques, but if you start meditating without a clear goal in mind, you might as well get into a car and press the gas; you hope you're pointing in the right direction...

[thatguy]

This sounds like a modern western breathing form used to prepare for astral projection and during chakra work. Is it also meant to be used as a meditation? I really don't know, I'm still fairly ignorant of how witches are introduced to meditation outside a particular purpose like astral projection.

This is a well known technique in pranayama, which is much older than any Western breathing techniques I'm familiar with. Certainly, that doesn't mean someone can't figure it out on his own , but it's pretty well associated with yoga.

Thanks, I don't study yoga, and don't know much about it. Could you elaborate on the usage of this breathing pattern?

Concerning emptying the mind...

My Buddhist teachers (and Buddhists are thought to be the masters of meditation) do not recommend trying to empty the mind by either active or passive techniques.

I'm not a Buddhist, but some of my meditation forms have buddhist origins. Do your teachers actively say "don't allow your mind to empty" or do they simply refrain from recommending the practice of trying to empty your mind? I believe that allowing the mind to empty is a powerful and positive tool that can bring you to places that would be hard to reach without it.

No insult intended, but I don't personally think of Buddhists as the masters of meditation, I don't think of anyone this way. I'm not even certain your statements can even speak for all Buddhists; there are so many schools that call themselves Buddhist; having many differences in their core beliefs and rituals. I don't know many Buddhists, but I've never had any of them say something like this to me.

I do however respect that this is the advice that your particular teachers, as individuals, have given you.

In Tibetan Buddhism in particular, the nature of mind is radiance and is constantly producing new things. Zen masters might slap you or attempt murder if you said you wanted to empty your mind.

Well, I doubt anyone would walk up to a Zen master and randomly say something like "I want to empty my mind." However, if the situation did arise, and said Zen master slaps you, I recommend hitting back; hard. Make sure he or she doesn't perform such a wanton and hostile act in the future.

I don't often perform meditations where one clears the mind, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact, I've recently considered doing it more often.

I'm sorry that I'm directly opposing some of the things you've stated in your post, but I want to make it clear to others on the forum that even if someone claims to represent Buddhism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism and claims a certain point of view, it's perfectly valid to disagree with that viewpoint; you may even be correct.

To the original question, however, the goal determines the type of meditation. Do you want to work on negative emotions? Your inability to concentrate or stay mindful? Your racing thoughts? Do you want to work on calming the body? If visualization practice is what you're looking for, you may find that meditation per se may not be the best practice for you. Practicing visualization might.

I agree with this, although I think many people here who posting in this topic have the particular goal of clearing their mind through meditation.

cheers,

T. Guy.

[sagart]

Thanks, I don't study yoga, and don't know much about it. Could you elaborate on the usage of this breathing pattern?

I learned it from a kundalini yoga teacher who pointed at some Sanskrit texts which, for the life of me, I’ve never been able to verify. However, I’ve heard of it from some other pretty orthodox yoga teachers and this might be the impetus I need to finally look it up.

It’s called square breath where I come from (even though it’s more rectangular). I was taught that it calmed various physical systems and that it helped with low lung capacity; obviously, this is a generic benefit for any breathing exercise.

I'm not a Buddhist, but some of my meditation forms have buddhist origins. Do your teachers actively say "don't allow your mind to empty" or do they simply refrain from recommending the practice of trying to empty your mind?

They don’t believe it’s possible. Whether it’s the intrinsic radiance of rigpa in the Tibetan school, the first nen in Zen, or shamatha in Theravada, they teach that there’s always something there. It’s considered quietist to try after an empty mind, and some schools of Buddhism have long made fun of Confucians for this.

No insult intended, but I don't personally think of Buddhists as the masters of meditation, I don't think of anyone this way. I'm not even certain your statements can even speak for all Buddhists; there are so many schools that call themselves Buddhist; having many differences in their core beliefs and rituals. I don't know many Buddhists, but I've never had any of them say something like this to me.

That’s very true. There are some schools in Japan that don’t meditate and just chant the name of Amida. However, I’m hard pressed to find another school of thought that approximates the depth to which the Buddhists have investigated meditation. The Abidhamma, as far as I can tell, is rivaled by no other studies of mind. In addition, I haven’t come across a single relatively well-established Buddhist teacher that recommends emptying the mind completely; while they may be out there, I don’t know of them. I’m interested if anyone has any examples in either instance.

Well, I doubt anyone would walk up to a Zen master and randomly say something like "I want to empty my mind." However, if the situation did arise, and said Zen master slaps you, I recommend hitting back; hard. Make sure he or she doesn't perform such a wanton and hostile act in the future.

*laughs* I can see how this might have been taken poorly. I was alluding to the Zen koans in which a student would ask a teacher a question and the teacher would respond in some manner, sometimes violent. They’re not taken literally nor are modern practitioners inclined to view them as ethical instruction.

There was actually an instance in which a person did say precisely that to a Zen master. The master reached for a sword and chased the monk around until the monk begged for mercy. The master explained that he was simply trying to help – if he wished to cease all thought as he had said, he was going to facilitate that. He was going to make him as thoughtless as a lifeless rock.

It's normally interpreted that the Zen masters never intended to carry out their violence, but used the threat to jar the minds of the querent. Sometimes, humor or simply absurdity was used, so it's not as if they were all the time running around with swords.

I don't often perform meditations where one clears the mind, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact, I've recently considered doing it more often.

Buddhists, as I have seen, make a distinction between clearing and emptying the mind. They strive for the first and usually deny that the second is possible. The difference in metaphor is usually this – an average mind is a cup full of muddy water. Buddhist meditation is thought to allow the mud to settle, but it doesn’t pour out the cup.

A thought is percolating – are these emptying the mind meditations usually accompanied by sensory withdrawal?

I'm sorry that I'm directly opposing some of the things you've stated in your post, but I want to make it clear to others on the forum that even if someone claims to represent Buddhism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism and claims a certain point of view, it's perfectly valid to disagree with that viewpoint; you may even be correct.

*shrugs* I’m just repeating what I’ve heard from them, as I’m not Buddhist myself. I have, however, read quite a bit about them, but this isn’t a claim to authority. I’m definitely willing to discuss my sources and any claims about their teachings in very concrete terms and welcome counterexamples.

[thatguy]

I learned it from a kundalini yoga teacher who pointed at some Sanskrit texts which, for the life of me, I’ve never been able to verify. However, I’ve heard of it from some other pretty orthodox yoga teachers and this might be the impetus I need to finally look it up.

Thanks, I've noticed that a great many modern 'western' mystical practices, including their terminologies, seem to have very strong roots in various forms of yoga. I have very little background in yoga myself, which is a shame because it's various theories are so popular at the moment. I'd like to rectify this at some point, but I think it will be some time before I come across a reliable source of information.

I'm not a Buddhist, but some of my meditation forms have buddhist origins. Do your teachers actively say "don't allow your mind to empty" or do they simply refrain from recommending the practice of trying to empty your mind?

They don’t believe it’s possible. Whether it’s the intrinsic radiance of rigpa in the Tibetan school, the first nen in Zen, or shamatha in Theravada, they teach that there’s always something there. It’s considered quietist to try after an empty mind, and some schools of Buddhism have long made fun of Confucians for this.

This sort of thing I have heard from Buddhists, and I definitely think it's debatable whether it's possible to completely empty the mind. However, I think we need to draw a distinction between performing a meditation which involves emptying one's mind and pursuing some final ultimate state of permanent, pure empty-mindedness. The former is possible, whether the latter is is a matter of philosophical debate. A debate one can refrain from participating in.

I now understand where you were coming from. I do believe it's possible to do a 'good enough' job of emptying the mind to allow certain things to happen.

Buddhists, as I have seen, make a distinction between clearing and emptying the mind. They strive for the first and usually deny that the second is possible. The difference in metaphor is usually this – an average mind is a cup full of muddy water. Buddhist meditation is thought to allow the mud to settle, but it doesn’t pour out the cup.

I'm a simple man, with a simple mind, so many little details and distinctions are too great a burden for me.

A thought is percolating – are these emptying the mind meditations usually accompanied by sensory withdrawal?

Yes.

I'm sorry that I'm directly opposing some of the things you've stated in your post, but I want to make it clear to others on the forum that even if someone claims to represent Buddhism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism and claims a certain point of view, it's perfectly valid to disagree with that viewpoint; you may even be correct.

*shrugs* I’m just repeating what I’ve heard from them, as I’m not Buddhist myself. I have, however, read quite a bit about them, but this isn’t a claim to authority. I’m definitely willing to discuss my sources and any claims about their teachings in very concrete terms and welcome counterexamples.

I thought your post could come across as saying "Listen all you guys trying to do this mediation where you empty your mind, all the great Buddhas or Zen Masters say this is rubbish. Cut it out you if you don't want to look like an idiot to the next Zen Master who wanders by." It doesn't sound like this was your intention, but I thought it might be discouraging to some people without someone endorsing the opposite view.

(As an aside, to most people (including myself) the terms: clear and empty, are interchangeable in most contexts. Specifically, to the average English-speaker, there is no difference between clearing and emptying the mind. I wouldn't expect those outside this particular group of English-speaking Buddhists to make the distinction you mentioned between the two terms in their posts. I'm only saying this to avoid any future confusion.)

cheers ,

T. Guy.

[sagart]

I now understand where you were coming from. I do believe it's possible to do a 'good enough' job of emptying the mind to allow certain things to happen.

*nods* The reason I write is that the vast majority of people in my experience respond very badly when they are unable to get to complete mental silence. Because the goal they have in mind - absolute zero for as long as they wish it - is difficult, undesirable, or impossible (depending on where you're coming from), people end up accomplishing nothing and, worse, they end up getting frustrated.

I thought your post could come across as saying "Listen all you guys trying to do this mediation where you empty your mind, all the great Buddhas or Zen Masters say this is rubbish. Cut it out you if you don't want to look like an idiot to the next Zen Master who wanders by." It doesn't sound like this was your intention, but I thought it might be discouraging to some people without someone endorsing the opposite view.

Definitely not. What I am saying is - there are some folks out there who have dedicated themselves to this practice to the exclusion of all others. They tend to look down on emptying the mind and suggest, rather, to try to slow down the mind and come to a much more controlled level of thought, with clarity and a particular sort of concentration.

(As an aside, to most people (including myself) the terms: clear and empty, are interchangeable in most contexts. Specifically, to the average English-speaker, there is no difference between clearing and emptying the mind. I wouldn't expect those outside this particular group of English-speaking Buddhists to make the distinction you mentioned between the two terms in their posts. I'm only saying this to avoid any future confusion.)

*giggles* I'll let you take the empty swimming pool, while I get the clear one. To be fair, we're talking about the mechanics of meditation - some precision is required. I wouldn't even say that "clear" suffices without an explanation.

[thatguy]

*giggles* I'll let you take the empty swimming pool, while I get the clear one. To be fair, we're talking about the mechanics of meditation - some precision is required. I wouldn't even say that "clear" suffices without an explanation.

I suspected you were going to cite some particular context where the difference between the meaning of the words empty and clear were strongly apparent. I thought about adding something to acknowledge this fact, but I thought that would be childish.

Yes, obviously, in the context of a swimming pool the two terms clearly have different meanings because a swimming pool is usually filled with water which can be murky instead of clear. If you can't understand how emptying and clearing the mind can mean the same thing to many people then I can't help you.

As far as precision goes, I think almost everyone who has posted to this topic has provided sufficient explanation for the practices they are describing. Please don't be a stick the mud.

cheers,

T. Guy.

[Gardak]

Well I don't know if anyone will agree with my technique but I will go ahead and lay it out for everyone. But first, I will tell everyone a little of my background in it, just for so you have some idea as to why I meditate the way I do.

I am a martial artist and the mind is a large part of it. It is perhaps more important then what people think. A clear mind can do much. I have learned that after years of learning my martial arts I have found a way to tap into the art of meditation in a way, perhaps, that others havent. I wouldn't really know as I have kept this to myself until now.

What I do is light a stick of incense(always chamomile, for me). I have found that chamomile often will help you relax and I believe there are a few scientific studies that have concluded that it releases a relaxing agent when burned or chewed. I will often light a candle(I dont think color matters) and set it front of me. I then shut off everything that gives off sound. I sit down in front of my candle and incense, close my eyes, and then begin to focus my energy into myself. In other words, I feel around my body and center myself. Once I have did this to satisfactory point, I will open my eyes and look into the flame. This is when I start to meditate and find my inner peace. I have then cleared my mind and feel the bliss of tranquility.

I hope this helps anyone who reads it. It may not work for everyone. I do believe everyone needs to find their own means of meditation.