Doesn't poly mean 'more than one'? If that's true then Wicca does count... Also, while most Wiccans I know personally typically honor only 2 deities at a time, most recognize more and/or change deities depending on where they are in that stage of their lives. I, for example, am Wiccan and I honor Cernunnos and Rhiannon, but I recognize Cerridwen, Brigid, Kuan Yin (yeah, I know she isn't celtic) and several others.If you deem yourself wiccan as I said above dualthestic not polythestic and therefore not part of my discussion either.
magick takes the steering wheel
I don't really want to get into this argument, but...
Dualtheistic is the beleif in two god/goddess dieties, this means they beleive in two gods and practice different forms of those gods,
Do i beleive them a part of pagism, Yes of coarse because by our faith we accept them as such. But acording to the orginal teachings of wicca writen teaches as follows.
Wicca is a religion based, in part, on ancient, northern European Pagan beliefs in a fertility Goddess and her consort, a horned God. Although the religion is a modern creation, some of its sources pre-date the Christian era by many centuries. Most Wiccans do not believe that their religion is a direct, continuous descendent of this earlier religion. They see it as a modern reconstruction.
Joanna Hautin-Mayer has written:
"We know tragically little about the actual religious expressions of the ancient Celts. We have a few myths and legends, but very little archeological evidence to support our theories. We have no written records of their actual forms of worship, and the accounts of their culture and beliefs written by their contemporaries are often highly biased and of questionable historical worth." 1
Ms. Hautin-Mayer is particularly critical of recent Neopagan books which she demonstrates to be largely fictional accounts of the history of Witta 3 (presented as an Irish Pagan tradition), Faery Wicca 4 (presented as an ancient tradition), and 21 Lessons of Merlyn 5 (a somewhat racist and sexist account of Druidism).
They practice mainly the horn god and the fertility goddess, and follow different forms of those two gods.
When your beleif begins to form a pantheon, where you add gods to it as you need them, then you have begun to form a Polytheistic religion by which case you are not practicing wicca, you are following a pantheon.
I am not argueing nor do I truly care, the first post was meant to mess with hedge not start a disscussion in the first place.
Do i beleive them a part of pagism, Yes of coarse because by our faith we accept them as such. But acording to the orginal teachings of wicca writen teaches as follows.
Wicca is a religion based, in part, on ancient, northern European Pagan beliefs in a fertility Goddess and her consort, a horned God. Although the religion is a modern creation, some of its sources pre-date the Christian era by many centuries. Most Wiccans do not believe that their religion is a direct, continuous descendent of this earlier religion. They see it as a modern reconstruction.
Joanna Hautin-Mayer has written:
"We know tragically little about the actual religious expressions of the ancient Celts. We have a few myths and legends, but very little archeological evidence to support our theories. We have no written records of their actual forms of worship, and the accounts of their culture and beliefs written by their contemporaries are often highly biased and of questionable historical worth." 1
Ms. Hautin-Mayer is particularly critical of recent Neopagan books which she demonstrates to be largely fictional accounts of the history of Witta 3 (presented as an Irish Pagan tradition), Faery Wicca 4 (presented as an ancient tradition), and 21 Lessons of Merlyn 5 (a somewhat racist and sexist account of Druidism).
They practice mainly the horn god and the fertility goddess, and follow different forms of those two gods.
When your beleif begins to form a pantheon, where you add gods to it as you need them, then you have begun to form a Polytheistic religion by which case you are not practicing wicca, you are following a pantheon.
I am not argueing nor do I truly care, the first post was meant to mess with hedge not start a disscussion in the first place.
From the dictionary definition you so carefully posted yourself, I definitely am considered pagan. Maybe I'm the one who should laugh at you. This whole discussion started because you claim that 'paganism' is a religion. Well, that's a load of bunk, and I still see no evidence of that fact on your part.pa·gan (pgn) Pronunciation Key
n.
One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
One who has no religion. <------ LOOK HERE
A non-Christian. <------- LOOK HERE
A hedonist.
adj.
Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
Professing no religion; heathen.
I'm personally glad that you don't consider me part of your religion, how dare you monopolize the term 'pagan' to apply to only polytheistic religions. For someone who constantly rants on about 'banding together', you're sure quick to exclude others. Maybe you're just a long winded hypocrite with a big chip on his shoulder.
Since, instead of answering my question as you promised, you chose to openly insult me, I'll let you know what I think. Half of your posts here are about the 'Christians' and the 'Jews' this and the Bible that, wah wah wah. Honestly, if you're such a holy pagan crusader, why do you talk about Christians and the Bible so much, hell, you even quote scripture. I can understand some resentment of Christians due to your past, but enough is enough, move on. Why don't you grow up out of your, "I'm a rebel against my Christian upbringing, and the government, join the revolution today" phase and actually focus on your own spirituality instead of dictating to others what theirs should be.
Is this an attempt to belittle me? How does the fact that I don't follow a pantheon of gods lead to the conclusion that I'm skeptical of religion or unsure of what I believe.So by all rights I want not trying to convince you of anything to do with my religion, infact I was not even talking to you as you do not follow a pantheon of gods.
Therefore at best you are skeptical of religion or unsure of what you beleive.
What exactly is your religion anyways? In most of your posts you always say 'our' religion, pretty much when you address anyone.
So now you want to exclude all the Wiccans from your little club of the "religion of paganism". Who the hell do you think you are?and to cut thisoff before it gets here.
If you deem yourself wiccan as I said above dualthestic not polythestic and therefore not part of my discussion either.
T. Guy.
That guy I have deemed you No longer worth discussingit with, You have your idea of what you think life it is, its is a false miss informed chaotic part of life. You will recieve no further answer from me because you jumped in on a topic that was aimed as a mess with hedge witch and got your pervebal ass handed to you.
I am done discussing it, until the rest of teh world agrees with you, and that includes George bush, who said this in 1999
"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."
-- George W. Bush to ABCNEWS, June, 1999
The vatican who said this in 2000. (Translated for you, since you probally dont want to study to find it.)
The pope today announced that he is glad that the US army has accepted paganism as a religion and beleif to be protected.
and The EU press advisor who said this just last year when he was asked the EUs stance on Paganism as a religion.
The EU stands by all the peoples and beleifs that they hold. All the countries with in have laws to protect religious freedom and that includes pagenism.
So untill that happens do your self a favor shut up and let me be while you have some face left.
Sercee read my post before this thank you hun.
I am done discussing it, until the rest of teh world agrees with you, and that includes George bush, who said this in 1999
"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."
-- George W. Bush to ABCNEWS, June, 1999
The vatican who said this in 2000. (Translated for you, since you probally dont want to study to find it.)
The pope today announced that he is glad that the US army has accepted paganism as a religion and beleif to be protected.
and The EU press advisor who said this just last year when he was asked the EUs stance on Paganism as a religion.
The EU stands by all the peoples and beleifs that they hold. All the countries with in have laws to protect religious freedom and that includes pagenism.
So untill that happens do your self a favor shut up and let me be while you have some face left.
Sercee read my post before this thank you hun.
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[Hearthwitch]
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:27 pm
Oh my! What a debate.
Exilus, would you be so kind as to list your sources for your proven facts? I am particularly interested in what you said about ancient religions, as I am a keen fan of history and archaeology. So far you have a somewhat interesting debate but nothing to back up what you're saying.
Also, please, please read over and spellcheck your post before submitting. I can barely follow what you're saying and it is certainly hurting your argument.
Hearthwitch.
Exilus, would you be so kind as to list your sources for your proven facts? I am particularly interested in what you said about ancient religions, as I am a keen fan of history and archaeology. So far you have a somewhat interesting debate but nothing to back up what you're saying.
Also, please, please read over and spellcheck your post before submitting. I can barely follow what you're saying and it is certainly hurting your argument.
Hearthwitch.
Do you even have a point Exilus?
I can only guess that your point is that the US Military and the Vatican have mentioned paganism and religion in the same breath, or one of them calls paganism a religion. I don't agree that paganism is an actual religion, even if some people (not pagans, you'll note) use the term to describe a group of religions.
Again though, here you are taking your definitions from the Vatican. In any case, I'm not about to go reading through a bunch of documents published by the Vatican or the U.S. Military, I have nothing to do with either of those organizations. If your only point is that these two parties have defined paganism as a religion, and that you're adopting their definition as your own, you have no argument from me. However, I really don't think paganism is a religion.
I understand (or was led to believe) that English is not your first language, but, spelling aside, you could honestly structure your sentences better. Also, saying that those who oppose your point of view aren't 'worthy' of discussion hardly makes your case.
Also, I really don't think it's polite to be telling other people if they can consider themselves a pagan, even if you renege on it and call them 'hun'.
T. Guy.
I can only guess that your point is that the US Military and the Vatican have mentioned paganism and religion in the same breath, or one of them calls paganism a religion. I don't agree that paganism is an actual religion, even if some people (not pagans, you'll note) use the term to describe a group of religions.
Again though, here you are taking your definitions from the Vatican. In any case, I'm not about to go reading through a bunch of documents published by the Vatican or the U.S. Military, I have nothing to do with either of those organizations. If your only point is that these two parties have defined paganism as a religion, and that you're adopting their definition as your own, you have no argument from me. However, I really don't think paganism is a religion.
I understand (or was led to believe) that English is not your first language, but, spelling aside, you could honestly structure your sentences better. Also, saying that those who oppose your point of view aren't 'worthy' of discussion hardly makes your case.
Also, I really don't think it's polite to be telling other people if they can consider themselves a pagan, even if you renege on it and call them 'hun'.
T. Guy.
Hearth I have dislexia, and when i am typing to fast I miss letters, or hell I even miss words...chuckles.. I do go back and read the posts after i type them you can ask DE she hears them often. But no matter how much i re read them I will miss them and it the leters are dancing as they are now, its even worse.
You will find all the following intesting and I hope ayou are in for a long reading process because thats what you get, I do research on this as a part of my faith. My grandmother grandfather and mother taught it to me as i was growning up, andthe one things theystressed wasto have many angles before you say anything is fact. So this will be a long list if i postedthem all, So I will only post some of them.
For the definitions of the words:
Websters dictionary, copy date last year.
Cross reference Dictionary.com
For the basis for religious history.
For the history of constantine
constantine, and the destruction of the gods of old.
Cross referenced for changes here.
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/history ... antine.htm
Here
http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/con ... index.html
and here.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm
The actual book part of that above, also tells the story ofhis being love with a women who denigd him, but those two pages do not, but all other parts of the stroy are close enought, plus the book says its is a story and not proven fact, but it lists several places for which it found reference to the tale as it did its research, and since I can not access most of them, I will take them as they are. do With them what you will.
This is the history of the fight to allow at first pagens to practice under just the banner of wicca, in FT hood texas.
Plus personal experience atthe time of the fight.
It was later further defined seperating wicca and Paganism into two seperate beleifs because of the Dualthestic nature of wicca main, and Polytheistic of pagen beleifs.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/bushwicca.htm
It shows several news reports as well as bush's quote,
History of Wicca from here
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_hist.htm
here
http://www.wiccanway.net/history.html
and here
http://www.geraldgardner.com/
The history of my religion and the belefs of it come from .
My great great grandmothers BOS, My grandmothers BOS, My mothers BOS and my own.
All cross referenced with internet history and library book history. Internet sites as follows:
http://library.thinkquest.org/26907/religion.htm
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Roman_Religion
The following are the hard copy Cross reference's
http://www.amazon.com/Archaic-Roman-Rel ... 0801854806
New world encyclopedia
There are many more, but i prefer to use my families BOS's as my number one resarch tool.
It is old and set in its ways yes that I admit, but we kept our secret for 6 generations that we know of for sure, and more is beleived. Why do I talk the way i do, because I don't just protect the knowledge of pagen beleifs,(NO i don't care what pantheon you follow Celtic, Odinic, of Greek roman, If i don't know i will find out for you the fastest way i can. from christians who have no clue, (and no that is not all of them, this is a short way of sasying those who simply name a satanist first and never learn. if you dont fall here don't take offence.) But it is also the job of every pagen to pass our knowledge on to the next.
Our beleifs did not all have wrighten words, we didn't have bibles we had word of mouth and that, that is what seperates us from the rest, we talked to each other and asked opions and when we disagreed, we didn't have to fall back on name calling. We simply disagreed.
My basis for weare all one religion, when the roman empire was at its hieght julius cesar made a speach to his tenth legion, when a soldier was caught defacing the temples of the odinic gemanic tribes, here in taunus where I live, Do you tempt the gods so much? The soldier replied these are not our gods. To which he replied look apon them, 12 just as we have 12, one wise one as a king 6 male 6 female, I do not speak their language do you know that they are not the same.
Yes the pantheons of both beleifs have more than 12 gods but in the anceint roman we have 12 gods who sit on 12 golden thrones, the anceint odinic the ruling of house of Odin was 12 gods and goddess's who sat on thrones in their version of Olympus. So yes i take that question to heart and I ask myself are we truly different religions or just denominations of one.
The last book i use forthe history of the germanic religions is.
De Historicia de germania.
Exilus
You will find all the following intesting and I hope ayou are in for a long reading process because thats what you get, I do research on this as a part of my faith. My grandmother grandfather and mother taught it to me as i was growning up, andthe one things theystressed wasto have many angles before you say anything is fact. So this will be a long list if i postedthem all, So I will only post some of them.
For the definitions of the words:
Websters dictionary, copy date last year.
Cross reference Dictionary.com
For the basis for religious history.
For the history of constantine
constantine, and the destruction of the gods of old.
Cross referenced for changes here.
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/history ... antine.htm
Here
http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/con ... index.html
and here.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm
The actual book part of that above, also tells the story ofhis being love with a women who denigd him, but those two pages do not, but all other parts of the stroy are close enought, plus the book says its is a story and not proven fact, but it lists several places for which it found reference to the tale as it did its research, and since I can not access most of them, I will take them as they are. do With them what you will.
This is the history of the fight to allow at first pagens to practice under just the banner of wicca, in FT hood texas.
Plus personal experience atthe time of the fight.
It was later further defined seperating wicca and Paganism into two seperate beleifs because of the Dualthestic nature of wicca main, and Polytheistic of pagen beleifs.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/bushwicca.htm
It shows several news reports as well as bush's quote,
History of Wicca from here
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_hist.htm
here
http://www.wiccanway.net/history.html
and here
http://www.geraldgardner.com/
The history of my religion and the belefs of it come from .
My great great grandmothers BOS, My grandmothers BOS, My mothers BOS and my own.
All cross referenced with internet history and library book history. Internet sites as follows:
http://library.thinkquest.org/26907/religion.htm
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Roman_Religion
The following are the hard copy Cross reference's
http://www.amazon.com/Archaic-Roman-Rel ... 0801854806
New world encyclopedia
There are many more, but i prefer to use my families BOS's as my number one resarch tool.
It is old and set in its ways yes that I admit, but we kept our secret for 6 generations that we know of for sure, and more is beleived. Why do I talk the way i do, because I don't just protect the knowledge of pagen beleifs,(NO i don't care what pantheon you follow Celtic, Odinic, of Greek roman, If i don't know i will find out for you the fastest way i can. from christians who have no clue, (and no that is not all of them, this is a short way of sasying those who simply name a satanist first and never learn. if you dont fall here don't take offence.) But it is also the job of every pagen to pass our knowledge on to the next.
Our beleifs did not all have wrighten words, we didn't have bibles we had word of mouth and that, that is what seperates us from the rest, we talked to each other and asked opions and when we disagreed, we didn't have to fall back on name calling. We simply disagreed.
My basis for weare all one religion, when the roman empire was at its hieght julius cesar made a speach to his tenth legion, when a soldier was caught defacing the temples of the odinic gemanic tribes, here in taunus where I live, Do you tempt the gods so much? The soldier replied these are not our gods. To which he replied look apon them, 12 just as we have 12, one wise one as a king 6 male 6 female, I do not speak their language do you know that they are not the same.
Yes the pantheons of both beleifs have more than 12 gods but in the anceint roman we have 12 gods who sit on 12 golden thrones, the anceint odinic the ruling of house of Odin was 12 gods and goddess's who sat on thrones in their version of Olympus. So yes i take that question to heart and I ask myself are we truly different religions or just denominations of one.
The last book i use forthe history of the germanic religions is.
De Historicia de germania.
Exilus
That guy not only am I american, I am a decorated combat vetren I live in germany now, because i grew physically ill how america has become. I have the religious freedom here that you will never totally have in the states and I enjoy it happly I suffer from a reading diorder that makes wrighting almost imposable, and reading even worse, we are finished talking. I have answered you enough and wish to argue with you no more thank you.
My apologies, I was under the impression that you were German. I don't want to argue with you either. Let's just say that I now understand that what you mean by 'paganism', is all polytheistic religions.That guy not only am I american, I am a decorated combat vetren I live in germany now, because i grew physically ill how america has become. I have the religious freedom here that you will never totally have in the states and I enjoy it happly I suffer from a reading diorder that makes wrighting almost imposable, and reading even worse, we are finished talking. I have answered you enough and wish to argue with you no more thank you.
We actually do share something in common in that the limited set of knowledge of my own path was passed from teacher to student. Fortunately for me, any persecution of my own way occurred mainly during the Chinese communist revolution, something I've never been exposed to. What I was taught, and the way I was taught is very different from most western traditions, even some of the familiar far eastern traditions.
The set of this knowledge has no name other than generic terms like "qi gong" and "gong fu", so my spiritual roots are really just "the way of doing things of my teacher" (some of the practices do have roots in the schools of Taoism, Buddhism and the martial traditions of certain well-known families). Recently they slowly become, "my way of doing things". There is no pantheon of Gods which I follow, although I may commune with Gods and be aware of their manifestations, sometimes even their persons, depending on the situation.
I divulge this to allow you to see where I'm coming from. My life isn't without tragedy, but I've been fortunate enough to have experienced less than my share of religious persecution, particularly the sort of persecution which you describe as being directed at yourself and your family.
Your own direct insult, coupled with your high-handed attitude left me insulted to the degree that I could not refrain from letting you know how I feel about some of your attitudes. I said some things, which, although I cannot deny that they are what I think, are not kind. Since I can't take back what I've said, I will allow you to see it from all angles.
I've seen you make many posts on this forum. Many of them seem to promote, or at least indicate, a great deal of antipathy towards Christians, Jews and to a lesser extent Moslems. You've mentioned your Grandfather encouraging you to 'know the enemy' in the context of learning scriptures. You've sometimes purveyed an attitude of a clean and decisive division between Christians and 'Pagans', and that we should all band together to protect ourselves from this ignorant, amoral menace. I realize that this isn't exactly what you say, nor what you truly mean, but I need some way to indicate how I perceive the flavor of some of these posts.
Being neither Christian nor Pagan (from your point of view), when I see this rhetoric, I feel very sad. I see a man whose family and self have been locked in a generations-long conflict with an opposing faction. I see you, in my minds eye, endlessly researching all the available resources surrounding this conflict, tirelessly compiling evidence. I see an angry man with a cause and a war to win. To me it seems like an obsession.
I'm not judging you now, nor condescending you, nor am I saying that my picture is entirely correct. I'm almost positive that another man could look at me and see the exact same thing. I'm not your enemy. I would never pass a law, or issue an order which would cause you or your family harm. I do understand that because I haven't lived your life, nor seen the things that you've seen, I cannot know your experience or fury.
You did anger me, at least to the point where I gave you a piece of my mind. Please know that the motive behind my words was anger and not malice, I do have compassion for your sufferings. I truly wish that your anger towards those who have persecuted you leaves you, and that you are left in peace to pursue your worship.
T. Guy.
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vonigan
-
[Hearthwitch]
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:27 pm
LOL! There is always dissention amongst the ranks. It's good to have a fiery debate now and then. Why pretend that we all think and believe the same thing? How boring! Besides, we're all adults and can endure a few bumps and lumps.sorry if I caused dissension amongst the ranks
it seems like some of you are arguing now, we're supposed to be friendly to eachother here.
be friendly please, even if you disagree with another's opinion.
Hearthwitch.
-
[Hearthwitch]
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:27 pm
Apologies for not responding sooner but I'm in the midst of end of semester exams here at university. Exam madness has descended and my textbooks monopolize my time.
The reason I ask is that the sources you've given are encyclopedia type summaries that give a great deal of general information, without indicating the deeper facts, scholarly debates and processes that go on behind them. In other words they're the watered down blurbs given to the public. Now, there is nothing wrong with these sources! It's just that they're just a first stop on the road of knowledge. As I've said, I suspect you realize this, but it's worth mentioning for others.
Also, I find myself a little uneasy at your use of your family BoS as your primary source. Like any historical document, your BoS is prone to agenda, bias and the limitations and assumptions of the person recording the information. A good example is Margaret Murry. She wrote the very influential Witchcult papers that inspired Wicca and so many other Neo-Pagan traditions. For quite some time people assumed her research was solid but only later did they realize that there were some serious problems with the information she reported. By this time people were citing lineage through the ages and unbroken near-universal traditions that spanned continents. It's a good example how wrong information can be repeated until it's almost truth.
Hmm, I think my point wandered a little. What I'm trying to say that as valid as your BoS is to how you practice your religion and how your conceptualize what you do, you have to be careful not to assume it's universal fact. Indeed, you should expect that there are errors and look to identifying them so that you don't generalize
This is something I've had to do as my family has a folk tradition of its own. There are multiple inaccuracies and oddities, that make my family's practices unique. Just because they're not what the rest of the world believes/does doesn't make them less potent or valid, but I've found it's important not to stick your head in the sand or let your traditions become unchallenged dogma.
!
There are often many similarities between religions as you’ve mentioned. How and why this is so is a familiar argument to Classics scholars. One of the main reasons cited is the long running trade practices between different cultures. Indeed certain ideas can be mapped as they spread down trade routes. Other debates surround the history of conquest and just how many original responses to stimuli are possible. There is also the sad consequence of time- specific information about local practices is lost and thus only vague. easily generalized facts are left.
Roman religion is very interesting, with the state sanctioned religions and practices and then there are a variety of cult and magickal practices that were officially frowned upon but everyone did anyway. Have you read about the curse tablets? They're a magickal tradition found all through Greece, Rome and Egypt. I think C. Faraone is a scholar who did quite a bit of work on the subject.
Hearthwitch.
Ah, I'm familiar with dilexia. My family has a number of dislexics and I have a very mild form myself. Fair enough and I appreciate the effort you've made!Hearth I have dislexia, and when i am typing to fast I miss letters, or hell I even miss words...chuckles.. I do go back and read the posts after i type them you can ask DE she hears them often. But no matter how much i re read them I will miss them and it the leters are dancing as they are now, its even worse.
I really am as scholar at heart and deep research is a way of life here at uni. I've gone through the sources you've given and they are all pretty straightforward and accurate. It's clear that you've put quite a bit of effort into finding reliable sources. I do wonder one thing, however, and that is whether these are the main sources you've researched or whether there are others you've not mentioned as they're not so easily verifiable/readable? You did mention library books, so I assume not.You will find all the following intesting and I hope ayou are in for a long reading process because thats what you get, I do research on this as a part of my faith. My grandmother grandfather and mother taught it to me as i was growning up, andthe one things theystressed wasto have many angles before you say anything is fact. So this will be a long list if i postedthem all, So I will only post some of them.
The reason I ask is that the sources you've given are encyclopedia type summaries that give a great deal of general information, without indicating the deeper facts, scholarly debates and processes that go on behind them. In other words they're the watered down blurbs given to the public. Now, there is nothing wrong with these sources! It's just that they're just a first stop on the road of knowledge. As I've said, I suspect you realize this, but it's worth mentioning for others.
Also, I find myself a little uneasy at your use of your family BoS as your primary source. Like any historical document, your BoS is prone to agenda, bias and the limitations and assumptions of the person recording the information. A good example is Margaret Murry. She wrote the very influential Witchcult papers that inspired Wicca and so many other Neo-Pagan traditions. For quite some time people assumed her research was solid but only later did they realize that there were some serious problems with the information she reported. By this time people were citing lineage through the ages and unbroken near-universal traditions that spanned continents. It's a good example how wrong information can be repeated until it's almost truth.
Hmm, I think my point wandered a little. What I'm trying to say that as valid as your BoS is to how you practice your religion and how your conceptualize what you do, you have to be careful not to assume it's universal fact. Indeed, you should expect that there are errors and look to identifying them so that you don't generalize
This is something I've had to do as my family has a folk tradition of its own. There are multiple inaccuracies and oddities, that make my family's practices unique. Just because they're not what the rest of the world believes/does doesn't make them less potent or valid, but I've found it's important not to stick your head in the sand or let your traditions become unchallenged dogma.You know, I once swore that I wouldn't enter into any debates about the use of words. It's rather pointless as the definition of a word depends strongly on time and context. I'll also add that people use words incorrectly all the time or don't even understand the word they're using. For example, I suspect Bush's definition of the word 'witchcraft' is not the definition we'd use. He may be aware of how Pagans use the word, but I suspect 'witchcraft' means something very different to him.For the definitions of the words:
Websters dictionary, copy date last year.
Cross reference Dictionary.com
Ah, Constantine. He did change the face of the world, although whether it was for the better or not is debatable. I will add that what he did was exactly what his forbearers did. It's also a pattern that can be seen all through human history- a new ruling class both destroys and absorb the old. Indeed, Rome had a long history of just doing that- destroying or absorbing the cultures it conquered. Just look at how the local British religions slowly took on Roman features. Of course, this process was two-way as can be seen with the worship of Egyptian deities.For the basis for religious history.
For the history of constantine
I think that this may be a case of generalizing. Certainly these definitions aren't wrong as they are being used in that a way. It's just that outside of these contexts, that isn't the agreed upon definition. I would say that there really isn't a universally agreed upon usage. I know that scholarly journals on ancient religion, magic and science have their own way of defining things and it can be difficult to keep track of it all! Personally, I generally use 'Paganism' as an umbrella term like a Catholic or Baptist would use 'Christian' but there are occasions where my use changes.It was later further defined seperating wicca and Paganism into two seperate beleifs because of the Dualthestic nature of wicca main, and Polytheistic of pagen beleifs.
I'm not sure if you've read Ronald Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon" but it's a great read. It's one of the best books published on the origins of Wicca and Neo-Paganism.History of Wicca from here
Julius Caesar was a brilliant and often scary man. I'm honestly not certain if he was saying something of great wisdom or great political value. Probably bothMy basis for weare all one religion, when the roman empire was at its hieght julius cesar made a speach to his tenth legion, when a soldier was caught defacing the temples of the odinic gemanic tribes, here in taunus where I live, Do you tempt the gods so much? The soldier replied these are not our gods. To which he replied look apon them, 12 just as we have 12, one wise one as a king 6 male 6 female, I do not speak their language do you know that they are not the same.
! There are often many similarities between religions as you’ve mentioned. How and why this is so is a familiar argument to Classics scholars. One of the main reasons cited is the long running trade practices between different cultures. Indeed certain ideas can be mapped as they spread down trade routes. Other debates surround the history of conquest and just how many original responses to stimuli are possible. There is also the sad consequence of time- specific information about local practices is lost and thus only vague. easily generalized facts are left.
Roman religion is very interesting, with the state sanctioned religions and practices and then there are a variety of cult and magickal practices that were officially frowned upon but everyone did anyway. Have you read about the curse tablets? They're a magickal tradition found all through Greece, Rome and Egypt. I think C. Faraone is a scholar who did quite a bit of work on the subject.
Thank goodness for Google. By Tactius, right? I’m familiar with some of the conclusions scholars have drawn from that work but not the work itself. Bad me! Just be careful as it's prone to all the problems associated with primary sourcesThe last book i use forthe history of the germanic religions is.
De Historicia de germania.
Hearthwitch.
ive decided to add my two cents way way late but nonetheless i feel my point is valid
Hedgewitch:
"I blame shows like buffy and angel etc etc"
i dont believe these are the only things to be blamed, if not more so you should blame the people who take these fictional and entertaining shows as fact and come to places like this and many other places wanting to achieve the things that they do.
we all know TV isnt such a lovely being in its portrayal of anything, but we cant blame those things untill they claim to be fact.
Hedgewitch:
"I blame shows like buffy and angel etc etc"
i dont believe these are the only things to be blamed, if not more so you should blame the people who take these fictional and entertaining shows as fact and come to places like this and many other places wanting to achieve the things that they do.
we all know TV isnt such a lovely being in its portrayal of anything, but we cant blame those things untill they claim to be fact.
ok That guy, Eastern religions are a class all their own. Now hear me out. Most eastern religions beleive in the power of ancestry. Ancestral spirits not a god persay but chi or similar. This does not make them not a religion my eyes, infact they are a strong and very powerful straight forward belief, but classifying them in any of the catagories we have named or are currently using to quote one schollar is a bit insulting, as the western pagen religions, are just that. Eastern religions have a totally different base and flavor. Do I beleive you fit on a forum for pagens, yes I do, BUT not because you are pagen but because you are other than christian. Your veiws on religion would greatly differ from the western religions is this bad, NO!
But its the truth, you neither pagen as you don't beleive in multiple gods, but you are not christian as you don't beleive in christ. Eastern religions are old and have their set ways, had you said this to begin with we could have saved us both headaches. Now why are you not pagen, pagen is a heathen religion(to quote a bad reference but only because in this instance it makes sence) Eartern religions are one of the most structured of the old religions there was.
Infact all countries make laws to protect eastern religions on their own, now you may not claim to be one of many different forms of eastern religion and I would be hard pressed to name them all, but oriental religions have evolved seperatly from western with their own setup and frame. But pagen is no longer the word used to describe them, because of the fact we live every single day under the push of laws, and orders no matter what country you live in. it was required that religion needed protection, the western religions other than christian were given the term pagen/Neo pagen then our denonmination, While eastern religions are usally tagged eastern rel: denomination.
This is not me this is the fact of the laws of today. When looking at the religions of today it is no longer a what religion are you, Oh I am roman. This doesn't work any longer because of the sheer mass of religions, if every single religion that joe smoe put together acording to the pagen beleifs was acredited it would be massive and just to store the list of religions we would need a book to quote the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. Would span half the known universe.
So this is fixed with simple terms and use, Pagen/Neo pagen, and so on and so forth. The same applies to the eastern religions. they have their own class of assignment in the world at large. Because their beleifs are so different from christian they cant be classed with it, but their beleifs are also different from pagen and neopagen. You have to remember this is the way to protect us.
As for my loathing of the devout, never changing people of the world, that will go away and my war with them will end when a gay person can walk into a bar and have a drink and not worry about being beaten, when a women has the choice of what to do with her body, and or the fetis inside it, and all the bible thumpers who speak of rules that are not writghten by god but by men. Sit back and have the understanding that the non christians of the world seem to share.
I do the research because if we don't then all that we are is lost, it is not all christians who draw my wrath, its is not all muslims and or jews, instead it is the pat Robertsons of the world, the jessie helms of the world, and all the men who preach christianity and use it as a weapon against people like us. If you have never seen one walk down 12th street in DC and follow the gay pride parade just once, go to the abortion clinic on 59th ave, and watch the women being escorted in by guards to keep the christian crowd from killing them, and lastly watch a open announced coven as it tries to hold its first meeting.
If we continue fighting amongst ourselves, we allow them to win again. Again being if you read any history, even the sources I have so far posted you will see, that most of our religions destroyed themselves. We fought amongst each other, over words over names, over what we are. These things destroyed us and then pagens became the most hunted religion in the world, for over 500 years.
-----------------------------------------------------Break--------------------
Now to Hearthwitch
I understand the push of exams trust me, now ad on top of that having to have someone read you the texts and you get my colledge exp....chuckles...
I never once claimed that my family BOS, is not biased twards our beleifs, not once. But i do veiw it as the best base source of my religion. My family has always been Roman our rituals are based in the same rituals the people before us used, yes the have evolved over time as all religions do. But for the most part they are the also the same. there is structure laid down to me from my family, this structure is what paganism as a whole has lost, and neo pagens in general have never felt. It is this loss of structure that we have to deal with.
To the people who decide if we are a true religion, and even though i wish it was the gods, it unfortunetly is men. People like you and me who grewup withthe structure of cristians, and wether they follow christianity or not they still put all possible religions to the structural test of christian.
As in the case with that guys eastern religions are being accepted faster than the religions that were here first, because they are the most structured andpracticed in the world.
and if we do not find our balance, no matter where you locate it pagism will fall once again to the side, and yes christian will fall why because they finally come to the point where they have put money above people, and just like when the romans did this, we lost ourt hold in the world and failed our gods in the process. The BOS's of my family are my source for both my beleif and my structure. They cannot be discredited because if they who are honest enough to admit this is a collection of knowledge from many people, is dicredited, then all works of times would have to be discredited, as being influenced by time. who knows that is not what the gods intended. Even christian muslim jewish, eastern religions, pagan neo pagen. We all share that common bond, the bibe has progressed to quote a commedian once.
In the days it was wrighten there were no freezers, in that time a steak could kill you, a lamb chop was like a plague. So they needed people to stop eating pork so they say that god said not to do it. and low and behold people stopped eating pork.
But now in this age in this time, we have freezers and suaran wrap a pork chop is your friend.
The main difference betwen us and the sematic religions is we accept that this happens and understand it. We don't denigh a text for what it says we look for why they said it. Then and only then do we accept it as fact. So i will continue to use my Familie BOS's, because this is the best reference for my beleif, and that is why we are here to discuss our beleifs with others.
Answer to next question
I agree with you that a word reliys on time and context, and unfortunetly like our religions our words must evolve, We at one time could say, I am roman, he is celtic, she is eygption but those times have passed, and in the time that is here, a time where the division of church and state are more fuzzy then they ever were, we have to evolve and forget the terms of the past and look at the terms of the now. The gods all knowing and all powerful, understand this. Pagen as a religion is titled that because even the law makers understand that to seperate us totally is to leave you totally alone, is to leave you with out president or consequence. So yes we need to look at the terminolgy and make us one religion not one beleif, but one religion, there is a differene, catholic does not need to say i am catholic, they do it to add to the knowlede they are christian.
But as a pagen or neopagen when you simply say my religion is pagen or neo pagen right now it has no wieght or strength, because we as a people have not defined or made it clear that though we of different faiths and different beleifs we one and the same guided by our gods.
As i said many times before. What is a spell but a prayer to the gods, what is witchcraft but a title for our practice. How we got it and how we came to use it, is important in the sence we never forget where we came from or how we evolved, but what it has to come to mean and what we define it as, is what it is. The history of the word doesnt change what it has come to mean.
Answer to constatine
Yes constantine destroyed alot, 1500 years of pagen rule destroyed in a night is a bit more than english religions taking on roman traits, or viseversa. Constantine turned from the old religions and destroyed them, prior to that point. (This comes from the people in here in tanus consequently one fo only two place the romans could not go further.) The romans made a point of trying to leave the religion of the lands in tackct, granted they brough in their influence, any conqueror would, that is what conquering is. But they did not totally destroy the people or their beleifs because if you break a man totally there really is no point of using him for the games. Constantine turned from this tradition and destroyed 1500 years of beleif and strength and not even 500 years later began th downfal of what was rome.
Roman is a very sexually free religion and beleif, Christian is not, so imagine trying to force christian rules on a whole empire of Gays, bI sexuals, and lastly straight people women mainly who up untill that point enjoyed much sexual freedom, further more in roman structure the women held as much power as men. After constantine they did not.
We know the power women held because they have found legion generals armor for women. before constantine but none after.
Generalazation of words
This is the problem I speak of above, weather or not it is a generalized term before it is not any longer and we hurt ourselves by leting others define them, because they are not us and they don't understand us.
Answer to the book you mentioned
I have never heard of it, i see if i can find it and read it, but wicca is not my main religion nor will I ever again use it as a general terminoly to get even a slight acceptance. So any further history of wicca is unessary to me. Thats not being cocky that is just being honest really.)
Answer on the tablets
No i have never read the tablets themselves...chuckles.. But i have read a translation pages of them on the net, I find them extremly interesting. You will find when i talk I tend to use old wrighting of a religious base and what it reads. Why because as bad as this sounds, they were infected by the beleif. We have the bad habit of seperating ourselves from gods before we speak. We like to find science and understanding but to truly understand why something is wrighten you have to beleive it first.
Anwer on the germania histories.
Yes it is one of the oldest and most accepted books for the germanic religions and is inprint in germany more than the bible.
But its the truth, you neither pagen as you don't beleive in multiple gods, but you are not christian as you don't beleive in christ. Eastern religions are old and have their set ways, had you said this to begin with we could have saved us both headaches. Now why are you not pagen, pagen is a heathen religion(to quote a bad reference but only because in this instance it makes sence) Eartern religions are one of the most structured of the old religions there was.
Infact all countries make laws to protect eastern religions on their own, now you may not claim to be one of many different forms of eastern religion and I would be hard pressed to name them all, but oriental religions have evolved seperatly from western with their own setup and frame. But pagen is no longer the word used to describe them, because of the fact we live every single day under the push of laws, and orders no matter what country you live in. it was required that religion needed protection, the western religions other than christian were given the term pagen/Neo pagen then our denonmination, While eastern religions are usally tagged eastern rel: denomination.
This is not me this is the fact of the laws of today. When looking at the religions of today it is no longer a what religion are you, Oh I am roman. This doesn't work any longer because of the sheer mass of religions, if every single religion that joe smoe put together acording to the pagen beleifs was acredited it would be massive and just to store the list of religions we would need a book to quote the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. Would span half the known universe.
So this is fixed with simple terms and use, Pagen/Neo pagen, and so on and so forth. The same applies to the eastern religions. they have their own class of assignment in the world at large. Because their beleifs are so different from christian they cant be classed with it, but their beleifs are also different from pagen and neopagen. You have to remember this is the way to protect us.
As for my loathing of the devout, never changing people of the world, that will go away and my war with them will end when a gay person can walk into a bar and have a drink and not worry about being beaten, when a women has the choice of what to do with her body, and or the fetis inside it, and all the bible thumpers who speak of rules that are not writghten by god but by men. Sit back and have the understanding that the non christians of the world seem to share.
I do the research because if we don't then all that we are is lost, it is not all christians who draw my wrath, its is not all muslims and or jews, instead it is the pat Robertsons of the world, the jessie helms of the world, and all the men who preach christianity and use it as a weapon against people like us. If you have never seen one walk down 12th street in DC and follow the gay pride parade just once, go to the abortion clinic on 59th ave, and watch the women being escorted in by guards to keep the christian crowd from killing them, and lastly watch a open announced coven as it tries to hold its first meeting.
If we continue fighting amongst ourselves, we allow them to win again. Again being if you read any history, even the sources I have so far posted you will see, that most of our religions destroyed themselves. We fought amongst each other, over words over names, over what we are. These things destroyed us and then pagens became the most hunted religion in the world, for over 500 years.
-----------------------------------------------------Break--------------------
Now to Hearthwitch
I understand the push of exams trust me, now ad on top of that having to have someone read you the texts and you get my colledge exp....chuckles...
I never once claimed that my family BOS, is not biased twards our beleifs, not once. But i do veiw it as the best base source of my religion. My family has always been Roman our rituals are based in the same rituals the people before us used, yes the have evolved over time as all religions do. But for the most part they are the also the same. there is structure laid down to me from my family, this structure is what paganism as a whole has lost, and neo pagens in general have never felt. It is this loss of structure that we have to deal with.
To the people who decide if we are a true religion, and even though i wish it was the gods, it unfortunetly is men. People like you and me who grewup withthe structure of cristians, and wether they follow christianity or not they still put all possible religions to the structural test of christian.
As in the case with that guys eastern religions are being accepted faster than the religions that were here first, because they are the most structured andpracticed in the world.
and if we do not find our balance, no matter where you locate it pagism will fall once again to the side, and yes christian will fall why because they finally come to the point where they have put money above people, and just like when the romans did this, we lost ourt hold in the world and failed our gods in the process. The BOS's of my family are my source for both my beleif and my structure. They cannot be discredited because if they who are honest enough to admit this is a collection of knowledge from many people, is dicredited, then all works of times would have to be discredited, as being influenced by time. who knows that is not what the gods intended. Even christian muslim jewish, eastern religions, pagan neo pagen. We all share that common bond, the bibe has progressed to quote a commedian once.
In the days it was wrighten there were no freezers, in that time a steak could kill you, a lamb chop was like a plague. So they needed people to stop eating pork so they say that god said not to do it. and low and behold people stopped eating pork.
But now in this age in this time, we have freezers and suaran wrap a pork chop is your friend.
The main difference betwen us and the sematic religions is we accept that this happens and understand it. We don't denigh a text for what it says we look for why they said it. Then and only then do we accept it as fact. So i will continue to use my Familie BOS's, because this is the best reference for my beleif, and that is why we are here to discuss our beleifs with others.
Answer to next question
I agree with you that a word reliys on time and context, and unfortunetly like our religions our words must evolve, We at one time could say, I am roman, he is celtic, she is eygption but those times have passed, and in the time that is here, a time where the division of church and state are more fuzzy then they ever were, we have to evolve and forget the terms of the past and look at the terms of the now. The gods all knowing and all powerful, understand this. Pagen as a religion is titled that because even the law makers understand that to seperate us totally is to leave you totally alone, is to leave you with out president or consequence. So yes we need to look at the terminolgy and make us one religion not one beleif, but one religion, there is a differene, catholic does not need to say i am catholic, they do it to add to the knowlede they are christian.
But as a pagen or neopagen when you simply say my religion is pagen or neo pagen right now it has no wieght or strength, because we as a people have not defined or made it clear that though we of different faiths and different beleifs we one and the same guided by our gods.
As i said many times before. What is a spell but a prayer to the gods, what is witchcraft but a title for our practice. How we got it and how we came to use it, is important in the sence we never forget where we came from or how we evolved, but what it has to come to mean and what we define it as, is what it is. The history of the word doesnt change what it has come to mean.
Answer to constatine
Yes constantine destroyed alot, 1500 years of pagen rule destroyed in a night is a bit more than english religions taking on roman traits, or viseversa. Constantine turned from the old religions and destroyed them, prior to that point. (This comes from the people in here in tanus consequently one fo only two place the romans could not go further.) The romans made a point of trying to leave the religion of the lands in tackct, granted they brough in their influence, any conqueror would, that is what conquering is. But they did not totally destroy the people or their beleifs because if you break a man totally there really is no point of using him for the games. Constantine turned from this tradition and destroyed 1500 years of beleif and strength and not even 500 years later began th downfal of what was rome.
Roman is a very sexually free religion and beleif, Christian is not, so imagine trying to force christian rules on a whole empire of Gays, bI sexuals, and lastly straight people women mainly who up untill that point enjoyed much sexual freedom, further more in roman structure the women held as much power as men. After constantine they did not.
We know the power women held because they have found legion generals armor for women. before constantine but none after.
Generalazation of words
This is the problem I speak of above, weather or not it is a generalized term before it is not any longer and we hurt ourselves by leting others define them, because they are not us and they don't understand us.
Answer to the book you mentioned
I have never heard of it, i see if i can find it and read it, but wicca is not my main religion nor will I ever again use it as a general terminoly to get even a slight acceptance. So any further history of wicca is unessary to me. Thats not being cocky that is just being honest really.)
Answer on the tablets
No i have never read the tablets themselves...chuckles.. But i have read a translation pages of them on the net, I find them extremly interesting. You will find when i talk I tend to use old wrighting of a religious base and what it reads. Why because as bad as this sounds, they were infected by the beleif. We have the bad habit of seperating ourselves from gods before we speak. We like to find science and understanding but to truly understand why something is wrighten you have to beleive it first.
Anwer on the germania histories.
Yes it is one of the oldest and most accepted books for the germanic religions and is inprint in germany more than the bible.
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Kifes42206
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Sterring wheel
What i have to say on this is that people who have a specific relgion that relates itself with magic can use when they wish as long as theyt dont abuse it or just focus on just magic. I may talk about my magic but i dont do it as often as it may seem. i conserve it for the right time and place because if you use it and use it you get worn out and then your spels might not works right. Haveing magic and a specific religion that deals with it requires a sense of responsibility and doing nothing but magic because that what you think your religion is about then you dont kn ow enough about what your doing or you are just plain abuseing your power. Sooo be respectful for what you have and dont abuse it in the wrong way because it is possible to damage or loss it if you know what i mean.
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