Witches Creed...

[brightraven]

I was looking for some advice, or some debate at least, about the concept of the witches creed. I am not a pagan or even a wiccan, I have no set religion though I do try to be nature minded and respectful of the earth and elements and when i have used spells it has been with the understanding that they work through the energy in the world- that's just how i understand it. Recenty i am finding it difficult to be completely positive in my thoughts, i am surrounded by several false and negative people within my wider group of friends- these people are not my friends but have recently started hanging around in this group. I have always been more one to watch than act and because of this i notice a lot that others around me dont, i see peoples actions. I'm finding it increasingly difficult not to think badly of these two-faced and mean people and it's creeping into spells i'm attempting. I don't wish to curse these people, i realise how wrong that would be but i can't wish them well either because i dont believe it and it wouldn't work. I would like them out of my life but i realise this is unlikely, the whole thing is affecting my mood which has already been quite low recently and it's causing me to not be able to concentrate on my studies or my spells. As i said, i follow no set religion but i do feel morally bound to some form of the witches creed, if for no other reason than i wouldn't like anyone to cast a negative spell aimed at me, but i have been feeling a pull towards using spells against someone and the energy whithin me feels a lot stronger with these darker emotions than it does when i attempt positive sells. Any thoughts on the witches creed or my own situation?

[stormer89]

well i try to follow the creed as well as the harm none rule. i always keep in mind how i would want someone to treat me. i usually let karma deal with people who think or act in a negative way. if you ever want to chat about what your feeling feel free to pm me.try to keep thoughts and actions positive.

[brightraven]

well i try to follow the creed as well as the harm none rule. i always keep in mind how i would want someone to treat me. i usually let karma deal with people who think or act in a negative way. if you ever want to chat about what your feeling feel free to pm me.try to keep thoughts and actions positive.

That's good advice, and also along the lines of what i've been trying to remind myself. Instead of doing anything harmful, i've used the "Spell to Make Someone See Their Errors". I've used it to good effect before and i feel happier about using it because it is a clarity spell which gives people the option to improve their ways- the person the spell was aimed at is currently being very harmful to a person i care about- and if they are a good person, when they realise what they are doing, they will stop. I guess that's the most i can do.
Thanks for the offer to talk too, it's very sweet of you.

[Makbawehuh]

Except that Karma only works if you believe in it.

Not being Wiccan, but counting myself as Pagan, I don't count on Karma to take care of these kinds of things... Get your friends together and tell them what you've seen, and tell them you'd like these people to no longer be involved with your group.

Either that, or cast a spell to open an irresistible opportunity elsewhere that wil draw the people away. Then they can bother someone else, and no harm done.

[LaFiamma]

Except that Karma only works if you believe in it.

Not being Wiccan, but counting myself as Pagan, I don't count on Karma to take care of these kinds of things... Get your friends together and tell them what you've seen, and tell them you'd like these people to no longer be involved with your group.

Does gravity only work if you believe in it?

Karma is not your actions "coming back to you"...it is the direct and indirect results of your actions. The definition of karma has been twisted around a lot and tends to be very misunderstood.

As I once saw it so nicely put on another forum: If you stand on the earth and pour water at your feet long enough, sooner or later, you're going to be standing in a mud puddle.

[[WitchMomma]]

As I once saw it so nicely put on another forum: If you stand on the earth and pour water at your feet long enough, sooner or later, you're going to be standing in a mud puddle.

Wow, I like that! I wish I could come up with brillant stuff like that!

[Makbawehuh]

Show me how Karma has been proven, like gravity has been. Seriously. Because you can't. It can't be done, it's not a law, it's not fact. It's a belief.

Karma is not simply cause and effect, indirect or otherwise- I'd suggest you do a little more research on the subject than you have.

Now, cause and effect? THAT is cause and effect, which is stupid to deny. So if you want to say that what they cause will come back and kick them in the ass, you may most assuredly say so, but don't you dare call it Karma because they are -not- the same thing. And please don't state it as a fact, because people do bad things all the time and get away with it, because they don't get caught, or people don't say anything, or whatever. And they certainly wouldn't do what they do if it bothered their conscience to do so.

So you can't even -really- say that cause and effect is going to kick their ass, because it isn't necessarily so.

Where are -you- standing, when you won't look reality in the face? Talking to the friends about the issue is a reasonable stand to take, when you can't count on the universe to do anything for you.

How does that saying go? "The Gods help those who help themselves?"

[Ashe]

Your right some people do some pretty bad things and get away with it. Thing is most of the time those people are never happy no matter how much they get away with because there is always something else to bring down farther so they think they need to get away with more stuff. I think your right about alot stuff like cause and effect are not karma. At the same time though i think if you do something wrong and get away with it then something will go wrong in your life. It may not have anything to do with what you get away with but still its something going wrong. Then again alot of people only do selfless things and dont do wrong and are wronged themselves anyway. With that in mind its up to each person to dertermine what they think. We could debate all day but to answer the question think about what you are comfortable with doing not what others would do.

[LaFiamma]

Show me how Karma has been proven, like gravity has been. Seriously. Because you can't. It can't be done, it's not a law, it's not fact. It's a belief.

Karma is not simply cause and effect, indirect or otherwise- I'd suggest you do a little more research on the subject than you have.

Now, cause and effect? THAT is cause and effect, which is stupid to deny. So if you want to say that what they cause will come back and kick them in the ass, you may most assuredly say so, but don't you dare call it Karma because they are -not- the same thing. And please don't state it as a fact, because people do bad things all the time and get away with it, because they don't get caught, or people don't say anything, or whatever. And they certainly wouldn't do what they do if it bothered their conscience to do so.

So you can't even -really- say that cause and effect is going to kick their ass, because it isn't necessarily so.

Karma is the result of your actions over your lifetimes and it doesn't always manifest immediately. If you've studied anything at all about the religions from which the idea originates, you might know that. Whether you believe in it or not is another story, but whether you believe in it or not, it either exists or it doesn't, and seeing as though all of our actions have results no matter how tiny, I tend to believe that it does. Whether it carries over between lifetimes or not, who knows...but it either does or doesn't. Lack of belief in something does not necessarily render it void.

If karma is true, then everything eventually catches up to you be it this lifetime or another.

I'm not debating its existence here, just trying to explain what it is, not what it's put forth to be by so many clueless publications.

[Makbawehuh]

No? You, I believe, were the one who compared karma to gravity. You're absolutely entitled to believe in it all you want... But don't you dare tell me that something is real and affects me, something that I personally see no evidence for whatsoever and with which there's no factual evidence to prove me wrong with.

And yes, Ashe, you hit the nail right on the head. ^__^

How did this go from a discussion on helpful suggestions about negative persons to a raging debate on Karma, anyways?

Someone other than me has to have some brilliant ideas.

[hedge*]

Brightraven when I've been in a similar situation to you, I find it best to work a little magic on myself.

Time will rat these people out for the shits they are - that is a fact. It might not be overly obvious and it might not fit in the timescale you'd like, but it will happen.

Rather than try to change the things you can't (well in my opinion shouldn't be wasting your precious energy on, not necessarily can't) change the things you can.

i.e you

Burn some candles, light some incense, meditate and surround yourself with white light.
You are above these people and their actions are not going to affect you.

Next time you are out with the assholes and you see them being assholes - think of your white light surrounding you.

See.....I didn't mention karma once!
looksmiley

[watershield]

But I will

Depending upon weather your talking about Buddhism, Hinduism, and other religions that incorporate the concept, and which sub path of those beliefs, Karma has different meanings.

Karma is a concept of Eastern origin and only really came into the west during the 60's and the hippie movement. Amazing what effects drugs and transidental meditation had on our society....

Back then, it became the general accepted excuss for not taking resposibility. "Whooow man, it's not my fault I slept with your old lady....what shitty karma I 've got!" (uh, yah, I'm from that era)
As we got older, the term just sort of got absorded into the vocabulary of western thought and developed a western definition, again which generally was not taking responsibility.
Since the introduction of Wicca to North America in the 70's by Ray Buckland (then a Gardnarian) many other "earth based" paths branched out, each with a degree of eclecticism with many of those people carring with them a personal concept of what ever their views on religion/magic and the Gods might be, as well as a personal view on Karma.
It remains that should you believe in Karma, it will have a defination unique to you and is not an absolute concept that will apply to all.

Karma is a belief not an absolute fact.
Jesus being the only way to salvation is a belief, not an absolute fact.
Heaven and Hell is a belief, not an absolute fact.

Absolute fact is but an illusion.............

[[Obsidian]]

I think it would be fair to admit that I do not know for certain that karma exists, even though I believe in it. At the same time it is just as fair to admit that noone can claim to know for sure that it does NOT exist. Can we agree on that? If we start to look for scientific explanations of any religion we are going to be disappointed pretty soon. Not necessarily because science disproves it but because science uses a set of rules that are not necessarily compatible with answering the questions we ask.

Anyway, I do not think that it would be too much to make other people in your group aware of what is going on. But be aware that some of your friends will take a step back and observe while others might think you are just seeing ghosts.

Harry

[LaFiamma]

No? You, I believe, were the one who compared karma to gravity. You're absolutely entitled to believe in it all you want... But don't you dare tell me that something is real and affects me, something that I personally see no evidence for whatsoever and with which there's no factual evidence to prove me wrong with.

Please don't "don't you dare" me. I've not violated any rules here, and I don't throw "don't you dare" at you. You might not like what I said, certainly you're not obligated to. but I'd appreciate the same level of civility that I've given.

[Makbawehuh]

Are you done, Lafiamma? And I -will- "don't you dare" you over something like that. Granted, I can't back it up with anything, but I most certainly don't appreciate being told that something is an immutable law of the universe when it is not.

Now, are we done vying for the last word?

Watershield:

Back then, it became the general accepted excuss for not taking resposibility. "Whooow man, it's not my fault I slept with your old lady....what shitty karma I 've got!" (uh, yah, I'm from that era)

ROFLSAUCE. I just about had to start writing spam on WitchMomma's bathroom mirrors after that, I was laughing so hard.