just wondering what your opinions are on this.

[jcrowfoot]

Moderators reading and CENSORING members PMs,moderators leaving the board and then returning under an alias: with admin/owner's permission too.

Oh, my. Where do people get the TIME to do this stuff? I mean... damn. Off their meds much? Planning on opening their own facist country on-line? How do they ever keep members??

When I go a wandering on the astral, I always send a little black bird ahead of me to find out if (mostly) harmless visitors are ok. Spouting "I come in peace" and all that. I also don't go to private realms uninvited...stupid.
Besides, making mischief on someone else's turf is stupid and dangerous. After all, it's the person in charge of that turf who makes the local rules... like gravity and physics and so on.

It's like a random mix box of chocolates put together by the Monte Python crew, complete with "spring surprise" and "crunchy frog" mixed in with the "napalm mints", bonbons, and nougat.

Anyway, maybe the NSA has everyone's email saved somewhere, but I doubt they actually employ enough people to read all that email. Because in order to keep track of all that mail they'd have to employ as many people who are currently in jail in the United States... and I doubt they'd trust that handy source of cheap labor to do the work they do.

They don't *have* to hack the servers, since it's possible to copy the packets of the email while it's in transit. So, that means if you use pgp (or equivalent) they really have to work to read your mail. And hacking that stuff is harder than you think, even for the NSA.

Just THINK about how much THEY must hate spam.

But maybe I'm just an optimist.

[Revolpathon]

ROFL yea, i have somewhat expierence in packet hacking, though i only use it to gain acces to wireless networks (they really are as leak as a basket, if not secured in the proper way)

eretik: thanks for the reassurance

the world is a sad place to live, you have to alway's watch your mouth about what you say

[amunptah777]

Eretik,

Well, I don't buy the whole "good/evil" thing, but I do believe in self defense.

In the case of certain types of animate beings...rabid dogs...sharks...and psychopaths..., if the only way one could get them to leave you alone, stop bothering/ attacking you is to kill them...well...so be it.

Thet

[[AmberRose13]]

"I don't exactly consider christian witches to be "christains" though. I think of them as still being pagans."

I don't think many of them would agree with you.I see no difficulty with Christians and spell work.It's happened as long as Christianity has been with us.They may be considered unorthodox by mainstream churches, or indeed heretical, but that does not negate their Christian beliefs or their right to hold them,while practising spellcraft or 'witchery'. Remember : Witchcraft is a system of practice which can ally itself to many beliefs and paths,[note : Witchcraft is not Wicca, Wiccans can be Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccan] why not the Christian one too?In Italy Christianity and witchcraft sit beside each other and it is common in many other Catholic countries also.

I absolutely agree with you here. I concider myself jewish, but still practice spell work.

[amunptah777]

Eretik,

You and I have already had wurdz on this topic.

Amber,

Sorry, but if christians aren't allowed to worship other gods or practice craft...then Jews aren't even allowed to consider the possibility.

Again, I'm not trying to offend, but have you actually read the Mitzvot?

no less than 613 laws governing Jewish religious practice and like I said to Eretik, Jehovah isn't about to budge about what's acceptable and what's not.

Law #334.Not to suffer any one practicing witchcraft to live (Ex. 22:17)

Law # 336.Not to practice superstitions/witchcraft (doing things based on signs and potions; using charms and incantations) (Lev. 19:26)


Law # 337.Not to consult familiar spirits or ghosts (Lev. 19:31)

Law # 338.Not to consult wizards (Lev. 19:31)

Law # 339.Not to practice specific magic by using stones herbs or objects.
(Deut. 18:10)

Law # 340.Not to practice magical practices in general.(Deut. 18:10)

Law # 341.Not to practice the art of casting spells over snakes and scorpions
(Deut. 18:11)

Law # 342.Not to enquire of a familiar spirit or ghost (Deut. 18:11)

Law # 343.Not to seek the dead (Deut. 18:11)

Law # 344.Not to enquire of a wizard) (Deut. 18:11)

Law # 405 That a kohein who is unclean shall not eat of the t'rumah
(Lev.22:3-4)

It does go on....

Again, no offense, but the argument I have with people who consider themselves pagan AND christian goes double for the argument I would have for people who considered themselves pagan and Jewish.

If Jehovah tells christians "no! no! you've been very naughty", Jehovah tells Jews "I WILL FUQUING KILL YOUR ASS FOR PRACTICING PAGANISM!!!!!!"....

I'm just sayin'....

Thet

[Eretik]

That's not always the case Amunptah, I know of a Rabbinical scholar who is an expert on Qabbalah.He is training to be a Rabbi.I already said this in the Qaballah topic in Q and A.It depends on which denomination of Jew you are,how strict the rules on this are.We've argued about this but my argument holds water.The same old biblical arguments [whether Torah or Christian]are meaningless,meaningless to those who don't judge their faith by books, or the word of other men,as I said before.You are,like someone else who argued here, are still saying Pagans who are Christian, a misnomer, I feel strongly on. Christian/Jewish/Islamic witches,I am sure, do not call themselves both.Why do you think they would? Christian witch, Jewish Witch etc.People are individuals and lumping them all together,based on orthodoxy,any orthodoxy, is wrong.LISTEN then judge.Why try to use the hammer of orthodoxy to bash the unorthodox? Fundamentalism, sadly is something that is only too common in Paganism/Witchcraft.Intolerance too.

[Eretik]

http://www.witches-tutorial.com/paths/cw.html

[amunptah777]

Eretik,

But I'm not a fundamentalist...that's not the point...I'm making an argument based on the evidence...for the benefit of those who might be confused by the issue.

Call yourself a BlueManGroupCirceDeSolePaganoSataniJesuitZenShamantiMusloTolteciChristoAtheist for all I care...I'm just saying...if you're gonna say you're something...qualify, quantify, or villify it.

For example...a lot of people ask me about my beliefs...I always say....my Buddhist friends consider me Buddhist, my Hindu friends consider me Hindu, my Pagan friends consider me Pagan...but my christian friends do not consider me christian.

I say this because I'm not interested in naming (see post RE: the unnaming) but it helps other people feel better (read "safer") if they have at least a generalized idea of my religious practice.

On the same hand...I would never say "I am Wiccan" because, while I do believe strongly in the Rede...I certainly do not believe in "The lord" or a male deity of any kind.

All this to say, when we discuss names for our beliefs, what we're saying to others is "I believe in a A. B. and C." not because those are our ACTUAL beliefs necessarily, but because A. B. and C. are what most people UNDERSTAND AS said belief.

Therefore...when someone simply types "I am Pagan and Jewish" into their keyboard and sets it out for everyone to see...this is not inherently troublesome to me but rather, I feel it important to help others understand why this person feels it correct to type so vaguely and tritely, when there are an overwhelming amount of people who, upon seeing said moniker, would be confused and possibly even feel hurt by such a thing...then we, as long-time practitioners...long-time-onliners...should insist that such quantifications be made.

To keep it simple, I was challenging the o.p. to qualify their statement, not so that I could personally gain any type of satisfaction by it, but, that the distinction that she or he has made, might be explained for the benefit of others...after all, that is why the 'ancient' Romans had things called "forums" so that opinions could be openly and thoroughly expressed and that a larger group of people might come to understand any one thought, however divergent it might be.

[Eretik]

"...I'm making an argument based on the evidence...for the benefit of those who might be confused by the issue. "

Whose evidence? You have repeatedly ignored counter evidence,to yours,whch has been presented here.You have kept on bible quoting, despite being made aware of the fact that so many of these people are not bound by the Bible,either as the source or rulebook of their spirituality/faith.All of the evidence should be considered in the name of easing confusion.You are being intolerant.Face it.

[amunptah777]

uhmmm...the evidence of the Torah, the Mitzvot and several other documents upon which the Jewish people have based their religious practice for several millenia.

You said you had a friend, studying Rabbinical Law right?

I also have jewish friends who would be appalled to think anyone could consider themselves a practicing Jew and a Pagan.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me...I'm just wondering if the o.p. would care to answer the argument for the folx in the studio audience.

Intolerant though? I donno...I would say that I am intolerant of laws and practices which oppress others. Many of the religious laws which Jews, Christians and Muslims follow do just this, and these laws have spilled over into the secular courts of most Westernized countries.

Yes...I am intolerant of hate crime and there are a great many laws of monotheist practices which encourage, inspire and provoke this type of injustice.

Therefore, if someone says to me, "I am a Christian and a Pagan", for example, I desire very much to have this qualified for me as, the laws of one belief system criminalize the existence of the other.

I'm not being a hate-uh...I'm simply asking for an explanation.

Explain to me, please how a person could consider themselves a Jewish Nazi? Would it be rational to be, say, a Pyrophobic Firefighter? An Acrophobic Skydiver ? Would a person who was mortally allergic to cats have a house full of felines?

Sorry. I don't dig the hatred.. the o.p. obviously isn't a hate'uh...but the word Jewish (other than the racial implication) implies a set of values which includes the aforementioned laws and I am simply trying to understand how that is possible.

Thet

[[AmberRose13]]

Eretik,

You and I have already had wurdz on this topic.

Amber,

Sorry, but if christians aren't allowed to worship other gods or practice craft...then Jews aren't even allowed to consider the possibility.

I'm just sayin'....

Thet

A lot of people get really confused and somewhat offended by what I am about to say..... unless you are from a russian jewish background like myself.
The difference between judism and christianity is this. Being jewish is a culture that happens to have a religion to it. Christianity is just a religion.
As my favorite Rabbi has said, " you can go to synagog every day, and follow every word the torah says, but that doesn't make you a good jew. Incedently, not going to synagog ever, but helping out your community, and being kind towards all, can make you the best damned jew there is."
The torah has some wonderful storys and rules and myths. But that's all they are. Pretty much, to be jewish, you have to assist others when it is needed, be part of your community, and teach the history of your people to your children.
Do I believe in the the enslavement of my people by the egyptians? yes. Do I believe that Moses parted the red sea to allow the jews to walk to freedom, and then have the sides collapse and drown the pharro and his people? Probably not, but hey, then again we all cast spells and pray to some higher being or beings above and below to help manipulate the elements. Do I believe that the oil in the menorah lasted eight days when there was only enough for one day? sure! Possibly one of the earier forms of candle magic?
But do I believe in the mistreatment of woman that most orthodox jews have chosen to take from torah, and the idea of being kosher in this day and age, when it was really meant to stop people dying from food poisoning in the desert? Absolutely not.
Somewhere along the way, the torah became mixed with "chrisian" like beliefs.
I only call myself jewish as a religion because others will not yet accept it as anything but.
- Amber

[[AmberRose13]]

Therefore, if someone says to me, "I am a Christian and a Pagan", for example, I desire very much to have this qualified for me as, the laws of one belief system criminalize the existence of the other.

I'm not being a hate-uh...I'm simply asking for an explanation.

Explain to me, please how a person could consider themselves a Jewish Nazi? Would it be rational to be, say, a Pyrophobic Firefighter? An Acrophobic Skydiver ? Would a person who was mortally allergic to cats have a house full of felines?

Thet

This actually like another opinion that is tossed at me all the time.
"how can you be bi? You cannot be gay and straight."
to put it bluntly, its really none of your damn business how I classify myself. I could be a gay catholic black jewish natzi wiccan, and you should still be able to put it aside and accept me as a fellow human being with the same interests in spell casting as you.
You do not expect every asian woman to allow themselves to be dominated by men, and be there only to serve them, but that is what their culture expects them to do.
My culture expects me to follow the rules in the torah, but am I not jewish because I choose not to? Furthermore, I never once used the words "pagan" or "wiccan". I believe in the energy of nature. I know that when I do spellwork that I can manipulate that force of energy, and send it out, or bring it in. And I know that there is a spiritual being or beings around us that when I ask for help, they listen and assist.
And yet, I can still retain my beliefs of my peoples struggle through history, and celebrate those experiences which were concord and learn from the tragedys that accured.
And I am going to raise my son who, even though his father is christian, to be proud of being jewish (if the mother is jewish, so is the child. If only the father is jewish, the child is half) and if he chooses to learn witch craft, I will gladly pass down my book of shadows to him. Because that is my right.
- Amberrose

[Shaman of Bliss]

For a long time I could get my head around being "bi" "your either straight or your gay." I've learned better. I should have been more sensitive to the whole concept in the first place because I am gay. Thats okay, I've learned and moved on. Ignorance is a cloth best left growing wild in the fields, not to be tamed and adorned. As for this whole argument...

She has a point, its not your place to judge her, as is it no one right. The point is that most of the people on this site aren't into strutured religion. Which allows quite a bit of flexability with a persons title and etc. So for a bunch of people who aren't Christian, or whatever, why are we getting to bent out of shape about what they say?

Why bring up Christian philosophy (and yes this is pointed at you amunptah777) when you said yourself (your friends won't call you Christian).

I think we need to all take a step back, simmer down and realize that when we callenge other people's titles (what they do or don't call themselves) and thier tradition it only insults and offends religion and basic human rights as a whole. Lets all have some respect, she is whatever she chooses to be, and no one has the right to get down on her for it.

God knows there are enough Catholics around to share that hate...

[Revolpathon]

so basicly let's all agree to disagree.

this has gotten a little out of hand here.

[Shaman of Bliss]

Thus my earlier point of trying to just let this whole thing simmer down. Although I probably pushed some buttons too, (my bad sry guys).