Do you worship or honor?

[MOTHERofDRAGONS]

I have a very big issue with this...
And a sub issue, prayer. .. Now, this is my own issue, because it resonates a different faith to me, I call upon my Dieties and talk, ask, put out offerings, .. And spend much time in meditation talking and asking for guidance. But for the actual term "prayer" I don't know, it just rubs me kinda raw...
As does " worship" .. I honor my Dieties..

I'd love to here opinions on both sides of the issue. I'd like to think I'm open minded enough to think I could hear and really listen if the issue is well spoken makes sense.. Bright blessings

[Zale]

Comming from a christian based religion I can see the ties... However. I think prayer and worship are more christianity terms. Much like if you are primarily a windows based user who is talking to someone who is an apple user. The concepts are very much the same but the names have changed. In the craft there are many fundamental differences between chritianity and paganism. However i meditation and prayer do tend to walk hand in hand depending on which veiw you are taking. I too much rather like the term meditation over prayer. As far as the worship and honor thing.... They are pretty different I think because honoring and individual or deity you are doing something to please them and inturn bring good credit to them for rearing you to be where you are today. Worship to me is more of the "Time spending" to honor them not so much the action that brings honor to them.... Am I making sense? For example in the christian path one of the ten commandments is thou shalt not have any other gods before me. This is to be interpreted as anything that you worship over "God." back in those days it was a golden calf. But now and days would it not be fair to say you would worship a video game if you spent all your time with it and have no time for spiritual things? I think so. So to me honor and worship are very different. But i must agree with your view. They rub me wrong too.

[Xiao Rong]

Hmm, that's a really tough one. (warning: long rant ahead)

For me, I "believe in" or "experience" the Goddess, who I understand to be everything in the world (past, present, and future), but also a consciousness (an "emergent property", if you will), that arises from the complexity that is in the world, who experiences what we experience, and suffers when we suffer, who binds the world together with love in a web of life. She is "greater" than me in the sense that she encompasses so much more than me, but the Goddess is also a part of me, and I am a part of her.

So in that sense, I don't feel like I worship the Goddess, because to me "worship" has a lot of Judeo-Christian connotations of absolute submission, devotion, and veneration. I can't worship her because she is not really an external force or entity to whom I can "submit" in the sense that one can kneel before a queen. I cannot venerate her because there are a lot of aspects of the Goddess that I do not very much like at all (if everything is within her, then so are things like evil, and hate, and oppression, although I think she does not like these parts of her either - much like I have parts of myself that I detest), but I do admire other aspects of her (and I think she takes delight in these too, like love and joy and pleasure). I might call upon her in rituals and spells because it's easy to personify her (as I already have numerous times in this paragraph already!), but the Goddess isn't really a deity at all. She is me, she is everyone and everything I know (and don't know), she is the connections between us all, she is my home, she is change, and a whole lot more. So I can't "worship" her because that's really too simple of a relationship, when really she is the relationship between me and everything else in the whole world.

I do pray to the Goddess, sometimes, but again I know that I am not really speaking to her like she is a deity somewhere who might listen to me (this is not to say my prayers fall on deaf ears, because I hear it, and I am part of the Goddess. As they say, "what you cannot find within, you will never find without"). There is an interesting bit of cognitive dissonance where I know that I am not praying to an external deity, but I speak to her like I am anyways. But it is still useful in the sense that prayer changes me, and in that sense changes the Goddess.

[Zale]

Well put

[MOTHERofDRAGONS]

When I first came to the path I'm on.. I quickly started asking myself this question, because it was associated with other paths I don't agree with.
Honor, definately.
Respect.
Meditation, in ritual, I have asked for things, but not begged like prayer.. And I think this is why they (the Dieties) have given us Magick. To help us help ourselves too.
Some things are just too big for 1 single witch, or 1 single Coven to handle. And that's where I mention this to Diety.

I am not so arrogant to assume I know and understand it all..and I hope that my Goddess Hecate, among other Gods and Goddesses will help when it is in the best interest of ALL.

Blessed be
)0(
M~Dragons

[scaravich]

I often use the word "prayer" to refer to communication with the Lord and Lady. I don't necessarily think it's the same was what most people consider "praryer," but the word feels right enough to me. I am certianly not asking them for favors (which is what I think a lot of people associate the word 'prayer' with) but rather I am communicating with them, often showing gratitude or honor.

I also don't exactly like the word "worship." I don't revere the Lord and Lady as some controlling force that I must obey and fear, that I must give my everything to and live according to their commands. I don't humbly cower below them and await their instruction and give myself to them. Because they are a part of me and I am a part of them. It is a harmonious relationship. Certainly I show my gratitude, I honor theme, I recognize their power and reach and presence... but I don't "worship."

There is an interesting bit of cognitive dissonance where I know that I am not praying to an external deity, but I speak to her like I am anyways. But it is still useful in the sense that prayer changes me, and in that sense changes the Goddess.

Well, there are parts of the Goddess that are external. The Lord and Lady are both within and outside of us. I think when we (or at least I do and assume many others do) speak to them (or her, in your example) we are speaking to them as a whole, not just the part of her that is inside of us.

I would say that there are sometimes I do indeed ask things of a diety. Though, I don't know if I consider this prayer. I often ask Odin to bless me with his great wisdom -- but I feel like I'm more respecting his wisdom and looking to him for guidance -- attempting to learn from him. I'm not necessarily begging for him to do something for me. It is completely up to him to do that or not. Sometimes he does not answer, and that is fine. I thank him anyway.

Sometimes I ask the Lady to send energy far away. By this I mean... when I know someone I love is hurt or sick, and I ask the Goddess to send them my love. I can't exactly send it to them, especially when I am not exactly sure where they are, and I don't want to cast a spell on them... I just want my love to reach them as much as it can from afar. That is an example.

But I don't really consider those things prayer. Though I guess with technicality they could be considered that. But I feel like prayer is begging or asking the divine for something specific, with an assumption that if you ask properly they will indeed listen and grant you wishes. To me that is not how my relationship with the Lord and Lady works. So I don't really consider what I'm doing "prayer." Even though I will use that word... but I realize it means something different to me.

lol, it's kind of a complicated subject, I guess!

[Skyleaf]

I'm of that mind, also. When I was growing up in a Christian culture, I was taught that you had to fear and obey God. If you didn't, He might smite you. I don't feel that way about the pagan deities, especially not my patron deity. I don't see Him as some all-powerful dictator that I have to tiptoe around and bow to otherwise I might get hurt. I see Him as a mentor, a coach, like a favorite uncle or teacher. I honor and respect Him, and I listen to Him (or what's the point?). But I also feel that He listens to me and responds. I never got that with the Christian God. It was like sending a message in a bottle. Maybe it might get through. Maybe not. But getting a bottle back with a return message. Not too likely.

[Xiao Rong]

I think this thread is great for illuminating the many different ways that one can interact with and relate to the supernatural ... I agree with Skyleaf - I've always thought the "obey or get smited" definition of worship was very limiting.

Here's this great quote from the novel The Color Purple, by Alice Walker, which is somewhat close to how I relate to the Goddess:

Listen, God love everything you love - and a mess of stuff you don't. But more than anything else, God love admiration.

You saying God vain? I ast.

Naw, she say. Not vain, just wanting to share a good thing. I think it pisses God off if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it.

What it do when it pissed off? I ast.

Oh, it make something else. People think pleasing God is all God care about. But any fool living in the world can see it always trying to please us back.

[Firebird]

Nice...you all have such great things to say,
Prayer is also a word I have a problem with, but for lack of better verbiage, use it to describe the action of putting forth spoken word into vibrational energy meant to break through the ether. There is something to be said for breaking the element of Air with your internal air. You can think great things in your mind and that is probably the first step in creating change, but as was discussed in another thread..if we could all just think something into existence or wish someone well, we would all be freaking healthy millionaires. When you spend the time to make a bardic phrase the laws of harmony work on your side, and you will be more likely to reap the benefits of "prayer". Equally, you might say I wish he were dead! Now just because you spoke those words doesn't mean he will die...but the universe is listening when you speak with emotion, some things will get through and some things won't, some things work instantly and some things take years, So when "he" dies years later or tomorrow, you don't know if is because you spake those words or it was just his time. Regardless you will feel like crap, hence the term "watch what you say". Using rhyming phrase and ritual action will form the groves in your brain that will create change. Mime and short plays further your bardic desires, remember ...our ancient brain responds best to visual symbols and when you incorporate these things into your "prayer" followed by right action, you will be more likely to have a positive outcome in your "wishing"/prayer. I'll also add this..(as I have many other times )... refrain from using any conjunction of the word NO. when phrasing your bardic/blessing/wish/prayer AND when working spells, leave out any word that boils down to NO. here are a few examples...don't, shouldn't, won't, can't, couldn't,.
I think when addressing deity it is much like devotional, because you are focusing your inner attention (ie, meditation, prayer ) on an outcome, or for simple gratitude.
To Honor or to worship...since I am of a mind that sees the Lord and Lady as fragments of ourselves, much like a rainbow that has many facets and a different function for each light shed by the spectrum, yet is still retained in a whole as in the white light from which all these colors are born...we are deity, and able to "aspect" any shade in the spectrum we desire. We become the God, We become the Goddess. When we are open to these energies we honor them in ceremony. We are honoring ourselves. The worship we do, is the action in the ceremony, when we gather in circle to raise energy and focus intent, it is something that is worthy of doing,

worship (n.) Look up worship at Dictionary.com
Old English worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (West Saxon) "condition of being worthy, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300).

To give reverence... is to worship... is to honor.
Many blessings, Firebird

[Lillady]

To simply answer this question, I honor the Lord and Lady! To me worship is a strong word and I am not controlled by anyone but me. The deities I communicate with guide me in my spiritual path, when I recieve something I have been working on, I give thanks, during our holidays, moon phases, okay several times a week I give thanks to our elements and Deities. To me, this is honoring them properly. Typically, I think how we interpret meanings of things, especially words defines a lot.

[North Star]

So many things I agree with here. Great topic. I don't think of it much as either, worship or honor... maybe just acknowledgement I guess. I am big on the influential aspect though, so it is kind of a mixed bag for me. I feel she is part of me, and the influence may change over the years... and I feel she helps me focus intentions and gives me hope.

I don't think of the word prayer as begging, when I speak of 'pray to the Goddess' that could mean asking for strength, thanking her for my family's health or when we make it through a tough time, sometimes just working through feelings in my head. I never speak aloud either (very hardly ever) so when I say pray, it means nothing more to me than talking to myself in meditation or whatever moment I may need it. A prayer can be another word for 'chant' even in some cases for me. I don't personally relate the word at all to religion or begging, but I totally understand how some see it like that. I had issues with the word when I was younger, now it is just a word. A spell is nothing more than a prayer with tools is how I see it. And pray is just a word to describe an action, not a religious word for me at all.

As far as thanking, sure... 'thank you and good night' works well for me . Sometimes she gets a "really, are you kidding?" She is in us, she is not perfection... that is what I feel makes a big difference in a 'Christian God' or Gods or Goddesses as we see them. They see their God as perfection (I think they do, I already told you guys I skipped my Catholic classes by age 7... and never cared to read the bible even for arguments sake, just no interest ) I know enough from family members what fear, worship, and perfection does to Catholics... most witches know better about the Goddesses (or Gods). They are women or men, like us. Full of life and emotion, and flaws as well. Maybe a candle or a symbol of her on my altar but I don't 'thank' all the time. To honor can simply mean acknowledgement of the beauty of the moon, the rain, just having feelings of happiness; I am honoring her in small ways every day, no need to overdo it I feel. Feeling sexy or smart or confident or strong, you honor, or thank, or whatever term you may use... in ways you may not even realize sometimes. That's the magick of the Goddess, in my opinion. How you feel inside is thanking her enough.

Religion, however, I feel more strong about in using that word for myself, I do not feel witchcraft is a religion. That is the 'dirty' word for me. Wicca could be a religion if that works for some. But I am not 'in' any religion... just a witch. I honor myself, no religion or set of ways, so religion does not at all fit me. To pray is an action, to be religious is much different. That word creeps me out personally more than pray.

I have no problem with pray, honor, worship (eh, not so big on that I guess either) but religion is a word I can't use.