Question about Wicca from a Christian

[Gaelicmaiden]

I was raised Christian, but have always been fascinated by Wicca. I have a question about the practice, and was hoping someone here could help me. I try to talk to my mother about Wicca, but she has a certain hangup about it. It's not that she thinks Wiccans are devil worshippers (she know they're not) or do evil spells. Rather, it's that she feels that Wiccans sometime try to take on supernatural powers that are not theirs to assume, like when they try to make it rain or something like that. In other words, they're trying to become a god or goddess. Unfortunately, I'm never sure how to respond, since none of the books I've read on Wicca address this subject. The best I can ever come up with is that I believe most Wiccans respect nature too much to change the natural order of things. I realize my mother may be looking at things through Christian-colored glasses, but I would like to be better informed about the subject when I talk to her about it. So, since none of the books seem to be helping me, I thought I'd ask actual Wiccans about it. Could someone please shed some light on this? Thank you so much.

[Eretik]

Well, I'm not Wiccan,but Wicca is very morally driven,by that I mean that Wiccan ethics on causing harm/doing 'evil'-[i.e. baneful magick like cursing and hexes], are quite strict. You will see that if you check out some of the topics here. Not all Wiccans practise magick and some only work within certain areas - not like weather manipulation or anything regarded as 'super' natural, like herbal medicine and the power of prayer/ lighting candles and wishing someone well,as Wiccans do, is very similar to Christian prayers.They tend to be gentle and idealistic people,as far as my experience goes.You can be a Christian witch,not just a Wiccan,I'll see what info. I can dig out for you on that and related Wiccan stuff too.

[Mycroft]

I am not Wiccan either but I started the path towards Paganism with it, as most do. I was put off a little by the ritual of it all.

Like Eretik said, not all Wiccans practice magik. In fact, some if not most Wiccans I know won't do anything too grand like influencing the weather or something of the sorts. They thrive for self-knowledge and evolution on a spiritual plane, at least the ones I know, and have read about.

If there are spells for rain or for anything major, chances are Wiccans aren't casting them. There are more witches out there who practice spell-casting and would use a hex or a love spell.

In retrospection of the things I've learned, I can say that a spell is mostly the expressed wish and it depends on the divinity if it comes true or not.

[Eretik]

Here is a link for Christian witchcraft,with several pages of information,I recommend you look through it all.


http://groups.msn.com/ChristianCraft


I've got a couple of others ...



http://www.geocities.com/tragicpixie/Ch ... Craft.html


http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/intro.html

[Elven555]

A weather spell would be changing the nature of things and effecting Mother Natures free will, which is against the wiccan code
As the others have said, a lot of wiccans don't practice magick, and those who do are careful.
To take a quote from the Spiderman movie "With great power comes great responsibility"

[Gaelicmaiden]

Thank you everyone for these responses. They have been a HUGE help.

[Wolf Heart]

I don't think I've ever actually heard of a wiccan doing spells/rituals to change the weather, at least none that I know of.

As Scott Cunningham put oh so wonderfully "Magic is the practice of moving NATURAL energies to effect needed change. If you wish to practice magic, all thoughts of it being paranormal or supernatural must be forgotten."


Blessed Be,
Wolf Heart

[twilight]

There were some spells like that I got in a book when I was 13, not suprising as it was one for teenagers, sort of stuff like "If you don't want to do P.E tomorrow make it rain! Taadarr!"

[Wolf Heart]

There were some spells like that I got in a book when I was 13, not suprising as it was one for teenagers, sort of stuff like "If you don't want to do P.E tomorrow make it rain! Taadarr!"

Well that doesn't surprise me if it was a teen one. The spells in some of those are so silly. I had the Silver Ravenwolf one when I first heard of wicca and even then I thought what she wrote was way to happy slappy. She had spells on how to get a boy to call you and things like that.


Blessed Be,
Wolf Heart

[amunptah777]

I have to laugh a little, not at you, but at the concept.

As far as I know, the only folx who are "trying to become gods and goddesses" are the Mormons.

I've been practicing for 20 yeerz and I have never once known a pagan who thought they could "become a god" with magic.

If I were you, I'd mention the Amish to your mother, whom even Southern Baptists respect for devout lifestyles and THEY use magick...in the form of "Hex Marks"

(They'd deny it of course, but a hex mark is still ritual magick)

Also, I don't know which denomination your family practices, but there's the Catholics...with their Rosary beads (ritual mantra...chanted over and over to increase the "effect" of the prayer) (hence "magic words")

Baptists...with their full-immersion baptisms...ritual "cleansing" of the Spirit (magic)

and the Charismatics...with their "speaking in tongues" (simply magical possession by the deity) (also practiced in Voundon, Candomble and Santeria)

then wink, and walk out of the room.



Thet

[GlenGoldentree]

Well that's the thing with Wiccan magic, it isn't considered to be supernatural at all. It's really quite comparable to prayer for Christians, with the exception that Wiccans believe that The Divine put natural energy in this world for humans to effect their own lives, rather than believing that God has a personal hand in each little thing that happens. IF a Wiccan was in a severely drought-plagued area and decided to try to bring rain, they would be trying to move natural energies, provided by The Divine (God and Goddess), to make that happen rather than praying to God for it to happen.

And plenty of Christians pray for rain.

From a Christian standpoint, I can see why someone might think that is akin to trying to be a God in your own right. Most Christians believe that God has a plan for everything, and though that doesn't stop them from praying for things, they do not give themselves any credit for what happens. That's God's doing. People even thank God when they win a football game, no matter how hard they themselves worked to achieve that goal.

In Wicca, we believe that we are masters of our own destinies, that natural energy can be used to effect change in the world and our own lives. Short of providing the energy for everyone to utilize, the Gods don't really take much of a personal hand in our daily existence (depending on your specific belief system). So, when I change my life or the world, in a small or large way, I can take credit for that change rather than thanking some unknowable deity. To a Christian, that seems a lot like taking credit for God's work, or "playing God." But to me, it only makes sense to take credit for my own successes and failures.

In other words, from a Wiccan standpoint, Christians expect God to do magic for them, while Wiccans do it themselves. And by "magic" I simply mean effecting the world in some way through the application of willpower and natural energy. Christians pray to God for what they want, and it is up to God to decide if they should get it. Wiccans try to get what they want themselves, and it is their own efforts and ablity that decides whether or not they get it.

[MVTirado]

Well that's the thing with Wiccan magic, it isn't considered to be supernatural at all. It's really quite comparable to prayer for Christians, with the exception that Wiccans believe that The Divine put natural energy in this world for humans to effect their own lives,

The irony is that this can also be supported by the Bible, however, it's always under the direction or approval of The Most High. It seems that the difference is more so in the medium. When miracles are performed in the bible by those who are chosen by The Most High... they're called miracles. Otherwise, such acts are called witchcraft.

There seems to be evidence even in Christianity supporting such things, and the question isn't so much what is done but rather how and why... by what force and for what purpose.

rather than believing that God has a personal hand in each little thing that happens. IF a Wiccan was in a severely drought-plagued area and decided to try to bring rain, they would be trying to move natural energies, provided by The Divine (God and Goddess), to make that happen rather than praying to God for it to happen.

And plenty of Christians pray for rain.

From a Christian standpoint, I can see why someone might think that is akin to trying to be a God in your own right. Most Christians believe that God has a plan for everything, and though that doesn't stop them from praying for things, they do not give themselves any credit for what happens. That's God's doing. People even thank God when they win a football game, no matter how hard they themselves worked to achieve that goal.

Although I'm not Wiccan, I think the same can be said for both in a manner of speaking. Christians should, and are Scripturally encouraged to, recognize their own strength. However, they are also reminded that it is The Most High who gives strength.

Personal power becomes sketchy not so much because we play like we're mini-gods, but even more so because we do not have perfect judgment. And the means we use to make things manifest might be questionable. More specifically, there is no expressed writing saying that using personal power is forbidden. It is said that we can do anything in HIS name. At the same time, we're not to contact other deities or the dead, not for prayer or anything else. So basically, the difference would be in who we petition to and the intent of our actions, and not so much what is being done. There in lies the danger of exacting ones will, regardless if one uses a spell or not. And I honestly think that people forget to apply the same rules inside and outside of "magic". Meaning, people tend to be hypocritical when they make remarks about "magic."

If I say a prayer with or without a candle, it does not change the fact that I have to have faith in what I asked, a strong desire for what I ask, and the willingness to make it happen. Oddly, that is something that is often not mentioned about prayer in Christianity, even though it is in the Bible. HOW to pray is rarely stressed, and yet there is a religion full of people who "believe" in prayer yet don't necessarily feel that it works.

Honestly, I feel that they work in the same way, for the most part.

The other difference, I feel, has to do with Law & Grace. But because Christian understanding of that is so varied, I won't bother going into it.

In Wicca, we believe that we are masters of our own destinies, that natural energy can be used to effect change in the world and our own lives. Short of providing the energy for everyone to utilize, the Gods don't really take much of a personal hand in our daily existence (depending on your specific belief system). So, when I change my life or the world, in a small or large way, I can take credit for that change rather than thanking some unknowable deity. To a Christian, that seems a lot like taking credit for God's work, or "playing God." But to me, it only makes sense to take credit for my own successes and failures.

To me, this seems like something that is true on the surface, but is often untrue in people's hearts. A lot of people say "thank you" and seem to give credit as a taught behavior. I don't know too many people who say that The Most High did something good for them, who don't take personal credit. By the same token, I've also seen many Christians who have blamed G-D for their troubles as well. It just seems to vary a lot according to the individual, their understanding of religion/spirituality, and the strength of their faith... not so much to do with Scriptural teaching.

[amunptah777]

There seems to be evidence even in Christianity supporting such things, and the question isn't so much what is done but rather how and why... by what force and for what purpose.
...
Personal power becomes sketchy not so much because we play like we're mini-gods, but even more so because we do not have perfect judgment. And the means we use to make things manifest might be questionable. More specifically, there is no expressed writing saying that using personal power is forbidden. It is said that we can do anything in HIS name.

While I realize this poster has, in other sections of this post, recognized other aspects of this argument, I must say that this part of the quote is the heart of the matter. I was raised by a Baptist Minister and have spent the better portion of my life studying such things.

The fact is that the "in his name" part, still comes under the heading of denying personal power.
While the church would deny such a claim if brought to the attention of mass media, and support such a claim if brought to the attention of your local priest, christianity does not, in any way support personal power.
According to Catholic doctrine, all things of this nature are done of, by through and for the "glory" of the non-existant trinity and any attempt to put one's personal stamp on the outcome is "blasphemous"

Essentially, within church doctrine, one can "request rain" but only the "deity" decides whether or not rain should, can, must or might occur.

Ask any priest or protestant minister, they'll tell you the same.

With paganism, the story is a little different. One can cause effects, perhaps with or without a particular deities consent but normally, it's the individual that makes a difference.

Sorry to the poster I quoted, but part of the reason I am personally thumbs down on christianity is this exact argument.

The church does not want anyone to feel empowered individually, under any circumstances (as this would detract from their deities' power/ organizations power)

Thet

[MVTirado]

No need to be sorry. You could say that's partially why I'm not a "Christian" myself. Better stated... there is a lot that is taught and practiced that is not necessarily stated in Scripture, even in spite of the fact that Scriptural interpretations differ. So to me, there is a difference between what the bible says and what religion says.

Additionally, the Bible does recognize the existence of personal power, no matter how indirect this may be. It just views it as something that is not necessarily right if not done with the approval of The Most High. And in my opinion, how one gains approval... rather, how it's known that one has approval could be debated all day.

Even in the day of the Messiah and John... for those of us familiar with the Bible, we know well what they were accused of. So, there can't be any HONEST judgment of any acts, including "witchcraft" without knowing the intent and the medium. LOL... I'm sure most Christians will NEVER agree with that (at least not openly in the U.S.), but that doesn't change what is actually written in the Text.

[*~Cyn~*]

I was raised going to the Catholic church on Sundays, but I never felt a connection. I dont know the bible like the back of my hand, heck I really dont know it much at all. I remember a few of the prayers, but that's it.

I fell out of the religion for a number of reasons, too many to list right now but if anyone wants to compare notes feel free to message me. LOL

I just wanted to mention something I found quite amusing... My grandmother & mother always used to say "God helps those who help themselves". I find it funny because as Wiccans/Pagans that is exactly what we are doing, helping ourselves... the difference is that we can feel empowered by it and know that with the energy the gods and goddesses have provided us with we were able to "help" ourselves. We can say we effected the change, etc., with the help of... rather than "God did it for us".

Maybe I have misspoken, maybe I havent fully grasped Wicca/Paganism (or Catholicism/Christianity for that matter) but I personally feel that it empowers us instead of leaving everything in the hands of someone else.