Alright, for those who have gotten irritated at fluffies for calling Wicca the old relegion (this includes myself), this may throw ya.
Well, Wicca was founded in the late 40's early 50's right?
'fraid not folks.
I was talking with my mother (who was raised wiccan and converted to christianity early in life) about the origins. I of course said it was Gardener who started it in 19whatever, and it wasn't that old at all. But, heres the kicker, he uncle, born in 1901 mind you, was a prclaimed Wiccan, and to clench it, his parents were as well.
This infact shows that wicca did exist at least durring the 1850's roughly, if not further back than that.
Questions, comments concerns?
Wicca: Older than you may think?
Wicca: Older than you may think?
---Wolf---
"And a godlike man--a man who is pure force--inaccessible to any compromise--is called a hero."
"And a godlike man--a man who is pure force--inaccessible to any compromise--is called a hero."
It's possible that your uncle was part of a witchcraft tradition of some sort, however, it is also possible that he wasn't specifically Wiccan until after Wicca was officially named and publicized. There were a few books on underground witchcraft circles prior to Gardner written in the late 19th century, the most notable one being Aradia: Gospel of the Witches. The real question is if your uncle was simply a witch who later called himself a Wiccan in retrospect or something else. In addition, considering the probable deceased nature of his parents, it's not possible to verify how 'Wiccan' his parents were.
Since all of this information is not from a primary source, you can't be sure. The only sure way you can know is to track down your uncle (if he's still alive) and ask him about his upbringing and his morals. There are, of course, many differences between being a Strega and being a Wiccan and there are also differences between being an 19th century witch and being a Wiccan.
As Austin Spare wrote in his journals, he himself lived near a self-proclaimed witch when he was a child (late 19th century or early 20th) who casted magick and read tarot cards, and was actually taught by her as a child. This proves that there were witches being brought up and trained since at least the early 19th century, but there's no indication that they were Wiccan witches specifically.
So the best thing that you could do is to first make sure your mother is distinguishing the difference between 'Wiccan' and 'witch' here and also to see if your uncle was a later convert to Wicca or not. In addition, if you can, check to see if HIS parents were specifically Wiccan or just plain witches. Finally, cross check their moral standings on magick. It's possible that there were people who were calling themselves Wiccans (since it's not such a strange word, unlike Thelemites or Chaotes), but weren't following the specific moral code as we know of it today. In that case, I wouldn't necessarily call them modern Wiccans but more like witches who chose to call themselves Wiccans perhaps for theatric appeal (there are even Wiccans today who call themselves Wiceans for theatric appeal, but they're still Wiccans). A lot of misinformation comes from decades of lack of communication so I think that there's a high probability that some sort of miscommunication is going on here.
In addition, some courts have not allowed Wiccan handfastings as legitimate ceremonies for weddings because Wicca has not been deemed 'old enough' (I'm not sure how old the religion has to be specifically), so it seems that even most Wiccans who have done their homework believe that Wicca as a full-fledged religion with all of its parts put together and bound is only about 60ish years old.
Since all of this information is not from a primary source, you can't be sure. The only sure way you can know is to track down your uncle (if he's still alive) and ask him about his upbringing and his morals. There are, of course, many differences between being a Strega and being a Wiccan and there are also differences between being an 19th century witch and being a Wiccan.
As Austin Spare wrote in his journals, he himself lived near a self-proclaimed witch when he was a child (late 19th century or early 20th) who casted magick and read tarot cards, and was actually taught by her as a child. This proves that there were witches being brought up and trained since at least the early 19th century, but there's no indication that they were Wiccan witches specifically.
So the best thing that you could do is to first make sure your mother is distinguishing the difference between 'Wiccan' and 'witch' here and also to see if your uncle was a later convert to Wicca or not. In addition, if you can, check to see if HIS parents were specifically Wiccan or just plain witches. Finally, cross check their moral standings on magick. It's possible that there were people who were calling themselves Wiccans (since it's not such a strange word, unlike Thelemites or Chaotes), but weren't following the specific moral code as we know of it today. In that case, I wouldn't necessarily call them modern Wiccans but more like witches who chose to call themselves Wiccans perhaps for theatric appeal (there are even Wiccans today who call themselves Wiceans for theatric appeal, but they're still Wiccans). A lot of misinformation comes from decades of lack of communication so I think that there's a high probability that some sort of miscommunication is going on here.
In addition, some courts have not allowed Wiccan handfastings as legitimate ceremonies for weddings because Wicca has not been deemed 'old enough' (I'm not sure how old the religion has to be specifically), so it seems that even most Wiccans who have done their homework believe that Wicca as a full-fledged religion with all of its parts put together and bound is only about 60ish years old.
"Nothing is True; Everything is Permitted"
Actually, he is dead, but according to my mother, his parents did claim themselves to be Wiccan. Though to see if he really was, I have no idea. My mom says that they were what wiccans were, and that "this Gardener guy" had nothing to do with its foundations. So I suppose its a very difficult matter. Though I doubt it was for theatrics, this is the same man that didn't talk to his brother from adulthood to death because one accused the other of stealing a watermelon.
---Wolf---
"And a godlike man--a man who is pure force--inaccessible to any compromise--is called a hero."
"And a godlike man--a man who is pure force--inaccessible to any compromise--is called a hero."
way way off, my dear. neo-paganism means "new paganism". Which is saying that Wicca is a variation of ancient paganistic practices. Gerald Gardener is granted the itle as the founder of Wicca around the 1940-50s since he brought it more openly to the public as well as establishing the rules, laws, codes ect...
But no, Wicca is not thousands or even hundreds (maybe barely 100 if my mother is in fact correct) of years old
But no, Wicca is not thousands or even hundreds (maybe barely 100 if my mother is in fact correct) of years old
---Wolf---
"And a godlike man--a man who is pure force--inaccessible to any compromise--is called a hero."
"And a godlike man--a man who is pure force--inaccessible to any compromise--is called a hero."
Well Gardner definitely has something to do with the foundation of Wicca, that's for certain. Wicca's strong Thelemic and Gnostic undertones probably didn't evolve all by itself, and probably wouldn't have evolved naturally over the course of several centuries. Looking at the popular ritual formats, you can clearly see a good dose of Golden Dawn influence. Personally, I don't think it'd be possible for Wicca to have naturally come together over the course of several centuries. If it had, then it would have a much more individualized mythology. In addition, I don't believe I've ever read an account of ancient peoples in Europe collectively worshipping any one deity known only as 'the Goddess.'
Wicca is such a mix n match of different religions, that I believe that it could have only been formed after the Industrial Revolution and the advent of European Imperialism, which, also gave birth to anthropology. At the very earliest, Wicca would have started around the publications of "The Golden Bough," the grandfather of comparitive religion, which was published in 1890.
However, giving "The Golden Bough" some time to circulate, some time to produce a religion, and I would definitely say that we'd be brought up to about Gardner's time anyway.
Wicca is such a mix n match of different religions, that I believe that it could have only been formed after the Industrial Revolution and the advent of European Imperialism, which, also gave birth to anthropology. At the very earliest, Wicca would have started around the publications of "The Golden Bough," the grandfather of comparitive religion, which was published in 1890.
However, giving "The Golden Bough" some time to circulate, some time to produce a religion, and I would definitely say that we'd be brought up to about Gardner's time anyway.
"Nothing is True; Everything is Permitted"
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