magick takes the steering wheel

[hedge*]

Now to teh television things, Blaming TV shows such as Buffy or Charmed for problems with people in our religion is like a christian blaming touched by an angel.

I beg to differ.
Christianity is taught in school from a young age and therefore holds no mystical appeal for a lot of people. Buffy and Charmed, Angel, Harry Potter and all the others advertise magic and witch craft and to impressionable people can be seen as exciting, intriguing and as being factual.
The original poster, vonigan said:
"is it just me or has anyone else noticed that people are starting to focus more and more on just the magick"
I believe this to be true from my own personal experience and the reason for this I have concluded is because of the TV shows and programmes.
I'd be interested to hear why other people think the sudden "trend" in magic and witchcraft is a result of - or do you not think there has been a sudden "trend" at all?

Now - as for paganism being a religion.
I can totally understand why a lot of people are under the impression that paganism is a religion - obviously there is a wide scope of difference going on who's definition you read.
To me paganism is a collective term for anyone who doesn't follow a Muslim, Christian or Judaist religion.
Picture a tree.
The trunk is paganism and all the branches are different religions and beliefs. Lets not forget that a lot of pagans don't even have a religion. How can you define an unreligious person as belonging to a religion called paganism?
You can't. It's a contradiction in itself.
I say tomarto, you say tomayto.

[Sercee]

Picture a tree.
The trunk is paganism and all the branches are different religions and beliefs. Lets not forget that a lot of pagans don't even have a religion. How can you define an unreligious person as belonging to a religion called papganism?

Excellent analogy and point!

[Stormwind]

I am pagan, heathen, pantheist, or a bad Jew. I don't really practice witchcraft, partly because I don't have any particular tradition I prefer nor do I want to get into that sort of organized stuff, and possibly because I'm just not much good at it. My God doesn't hate you for not believing.

[Storm]

Can I be really nitpicky here and just remind everyone that paganism isn't a religion.

Exactly. I do not see myself as religious and when people ask me if I am I will always answer 'no'.

[Lucine]

Just a couple of thoughts, I can't remember who said what.

But, I don't care what the US Government or the Pope defines as a religion and what it does not. I am still in the study phase, but I did just get materials to start my Book of Realms or Shadows if you prefer. In anycase I will most likely be a solo practitioner, but I sure will be relying heavily on outside advise. I haven't even attended a single meeting with others on the path. I will later this month though.

That being said I believe it is up to us not outsiders to define who we are or not. I am comfortable having no lable at all or give me a dozen it matters not to my belief system. I think there is value in banding together, but I don't think we have to accept any particular lable.

[jcrowfoot]

The problem, I think, is where to draw that pesky line in the sand.

If I understand Exilus correctly, Eastern religions aren't religions at all because they don't have gods.

It also can be argued that the Celts didn't have gods, but ancestors and land spirits. Does that mean that paleopagan Celts didn't have religion?

So what about the Tibetans? Are they pagan or not? The Tibetan gods even survived to be expressed in Tibetan Buddhism. Now that takes chuspa, even for a god.
I suppose one could argue that they are as concretely gods as the gods in Voudoun. Vodoun must qualify as a religion.

I'll also posit that it is popularly opined that ancestor worship is the origin of all religion. I will also posit that many religions have different views on what the term "god" actually means, and very different ideas of what they are generally capable of.

Also, did the Native Americans have religion before white man showed up? That's the question. I'll admit, it's a trick question.

I would also argue that there aren't that many European pagan religions practiced today that have an UNBROKEN line to the past. So not just Wicca, but %99.9 of what is out there qualifies as NeoPagan. Even ADF, with its strong reconstructionist tendencies, admits to being NeoPagan. Very little is Paleopagan, at least in European culture. SO much has been lost over time.

Hinduism, for example, I think qualifies as paleopagan. Though it's arguable weather it's polytheistic. Many factions believe that the other gods are just faces of the god they worship. Check out the worshipers of Vishnu, for an example. It's also a popular view for worshipers of S(h)iva. Which sounds an awful lot like the attitude of some Wiccans. So are Hindus polytheists? (I'll also point out that the worshipers of Vishnu and Shiva make up a majority between them)

They may be pagan by virtue of not being Judeo-Christian or Muslim, but one can hardly argue that Hinduism was grouped as pagan because it isn't a major religion. However, it *is* an Eastern religion, yet pagan.

All this being said, I respect your scholarship, Exilus. I'm not trying to pick fights here. I just want to know what you have to say about my points.

I also realize that you didn't imply that Hinduism isn't a major religion.
I'm just pointing out how the delineations that seem firm are just freaking lines drawn in the sand. They are useful, simply because if you can't generalize it's difficult to have meaningful discussions about anything. Sometimes I like to think that there are better places to draw those lines.

Granularity shall be my undoing.

Also, I hope to find a way to have these kinds of discussions without endangering solidarity. Discussion is a healthy activity and should be encouraged. We should be able to agree to disagree without bloodshed.

Most of what I've said here comes from a Comparative Religion course I took at EMU back in 1998, the book being Living Religions Fifth Ed, written by Mary Pat Fisher and a little book on Tibetan religion called <i>Dances with the Gods</i>. My info on the Celts comes from Hutton's book: <i>The Pagan Religions of Ancient British Isles</i>. Oh, and I should reference the ADF website. http://www.adf.org
(Un)fortunately, most of what I know about Voudoun comes from conversations with practitioners, which means it's hard to document. Also some from the book <i>Face of the Gods</i> by Robert F. Thompson.

[Sercee]

If I understand Exilus correctly, Eastern religions aren't religions at all because they don't have gods.

Eastern religions do have Gods, they are just perceived differently. As with the western pagan religions, everything is divine or, more specifically to them, everything has the potential to become divine.

I did a bit of research on Taoism and what I learned is that they percieve the soul as an embryo. As you progress spiritually the embryo grows and grows until it bursts forth through your crown chakra upon the death of your body. However that does not make you dead it makes you a deity and your wisdom and aid can be available to future generations.

The ancestor thing is related to their concept of Original Sin. It isn't Adam and Eve, but they believe that the sins of your life that aren't repaid are passed to the next generation. When you die your offspring will write a petition to the Gods (Lao Tzu, ancestor deities, other enlightened beings) listing your sins that he/she wishes absolved. Then the list is burned so the smoke can carry it to the Gods.

OK, that was a ramble. The point was they are religions. Voudoun is a religion. Native American Shamanism is (several) religions. One definition of 'religion' is 'relinking', the reconnection of things seperated. In Buddhism you are 'relinking' yourself to the divine as you once were.

Just examples.
Oh yeah, and Taoism (I don't know for certain about buddhism, hindu or shinto etc) is considered pagan as it is an earth religion.

[jcrowfoot]

Yep. That was my point, Sercee; that many of the Religions that Exilus seemed to say weren't religions actually were.
Was I unclear on that?

I'm not upset, just wondering.