Various sources I read state that it is better to adopt a vegetarian lifestyle in order to become a better practitioner of Wiccca etc... As a life long omnivore, I doubt I can change now. Is it important? What do other members think?
Stella
Vegetarianism.
As far as I'm concerned, it's up to you whether you decide to become a Vegetarian. Whether you are or not is of little matter to the practice of Wicca, I'm pretty sure of that.
So, unless you feel like a change in diet and lifestyle, I see no reason for you to force yourself to become Vegetarian.. And I certainly don't think doing so makes you a 'better practicioner'. Of course, others' views may differ
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Elem
So, unless you feel like a change in diet and lifestyle, I see no reason for you to force yourself to become Vegetarian.. And I certainly don't think doing so makes you a 'better practicioner'. Of course, others' views may differ
.Elem
the way i see it(not being Wiccan) is its all about nature pretty much...and even though some may not like it nature invented the food chain, we've been eating animals for a long time why stop now. if you want to thats all well and good, but the food you eat doesnt effect your belief or the strength of your ability to practice.
Most of the time when a Wiccan (or most other pagans) chooses to become vegetarian it's because they're complementing their beliefs that all life is sacred. Granted, most vegetarians are quite healthy which augments their ability to perform spells or long activites, but you don't need to be vegetarian to be an effective or gifted witch.
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WillowMoon
Vegetarianism
Thanks to everyone for their views. They reinforce what my own feelings are on the subject, which is to go with my own instinct and not blindly follow somebody else's ideas, [nor to take for granted what one reads in some books.] Although I appreciate the reasons why folk become vegetarian, I don't think it's for me, well, not at the moment anyway.
Stella.
Stella.
Good to hear, Stella It's best to do something for your own reasons rather than someone else's. Then you're far more comfortable with your decisions as well.
I couldn't go vegetarien either. I did, however, cut back how much meat I was eating and I make it a point that the meat I buy is fairly local and there is no unnecessary brutality. I see no reason that an animal has to suffer to provide me with nourishment, and death does not have to equal suffering.
It's best to do something for your own reasons rather than someone else's. Then you're far more comfortable with your decisions as well.I couldn't go vegetarien either. I did, however, cut back how much meat I was eating and I make it a point that the meat I buy is fairly local and there is no unnecessary brutality. I see no reason that an animal has to suffer to provide me with nourishment, and death does not have to equal suffering.
I can't become vegetarian, I have a condition which makes life interesting. I don't absorb Iron well,sometimes not at all. My health has improved greatly by including more red meat more often. I need to watch my diet carefully, get plenty of high quality carbs etc.I have methods for de-fatting which I 'm religious about [hate fat] It's a body builder's diet - basically. Weird,but what makes others ill keeps me strong. I do however occasionally go veggie for 24 hours, then fast one day if I am working ritually, under certain circumstances. It makes sense to 'travel light ' sometimes. I need to rest up and cram afterwards though. Here we can get Halal meat[ ritually slaughtered, in the Muslim way] this is much healthier as the blood is drained out, it's also, in my opinion a much less cruel method, fast and efficient. If you become veggie, you need to take extra care to ensure you gety enough good quality protein in your diet, thatr is very important.I had several veggie friends, one was always ill - she was very anaemic, due to low iron intake ,you need to watch that too.Spinach and Broccoli with every meal.LOL.
I'm sorry if I'm hijacking the topic but I have a couple questions for ya, Eretik.
About that style of slaughter, how is it healthier and how is it less cruel (honestly curious)? I thought that draining the blood out just took away from the meat (don't know, just had that idea) and I was under the impression that when they bleed the meat the animal is still alive?
*WARNING THIS MAY BE GRAPHIC FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE ANIMAL SLAUGHTER*
When I was very young I 'helped' my uncled and grandpa butcher their cattle (I'd actually forgotten about this but my sister brought it up recently). I remember that they had cut its throat to let it bleed out, and I remember that it stayed alive for some time. My sister (who for whatever reason has always had a better memory than I) also remembers the sounds the cow made and recognized it as 'kosher' slaughter. I know the Jews and Muslims aren't the same, but the practice sounds similar... Anyway the point is that looking back to the event, it didn't seem like anything BUT cruel. The only reasons I don't hate myself for taking part is that I didn't know better at the time, I was just helping my grampa.
About that style of slaughter, how is it healthier and how is it less cruel (honestly curious)? I thought that draining the blood out just took away from the meat (don't know, just had that idea) and I was under the impression that when they bleed the meat the animal is still alive?
*WARNING THIS MAY BE GRAPHIC FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE ANIMAL SLAUGHTER*
When I was very young I 'helped' my uncled and grandpa butcher their cattle (I'd actually forgotten about this but my sister brought it up recently). I remember that they had cut its throat to let it bleed out, and I remember that it stayed alive for some time. My sister (who for whatever reason has always had a better memory than I) also remembers the sounds the cow made and recognized it as 'kosher' slaughter. I know the Jews and Muslims aren't the same, but the practice sounds similar... Anyway the point is that looking back to the event, it didn't seem like anything BUT cruel. The only reasons I don't hate myself for taking part is that I didn't know better at the time, I was just helping my grampa.
Well, from what I know Sercee,remembering, from the top of my head - which I will need to check on The animal is restrained, very deftly, as I recall from the footage I saw,and the throat is slit deeply and quickly. I was informed it severs a nerve as well as the artery, if done right. The death is from bleeding out fast, but it's meant to be a lot less painful than other methods. This of course, depends on the slaughterman himself - a knowledge that he would aquire in practice. I am sure this gets done awkwardly at times,but I still find it preferable to the commercial methods used here in Britain. We stun bolt and then slit the throat, I 'n sure you have probably seen footage of how unpleasant and inneficient this method is, not to say cruel as the other animals are fully aware of what is to happen. I don't really think it is possible to slaughter animals on a large scale completely humanely, but there has to be better than the commercial practice used now? I don't eat blood products or organs/brain/ spinal/soft tissues, I prefer the meat to be drained of as much blood as possible, this is actually MY religious practice, based on the notion of lifeforce=blood/areas of prime blood flow[organs etc] - I don't want part of that animals soul within me , unless it is a particular rite where this is necessary [ which would rarely, if ever, be done by me] It is also a fact that most of the diseases which can cross - infect [zoonoses] come from these parts, thinking mostly of Mad Cow Disease here, but others apply too. I think the meat is healthier if bled out and it tastes better. Others will disagree on that - there is the notion [which I believe is true,as tests have been done on adrenalin in meat] that an animal that died suffering[ which is why the animals tortured in certain countries are said to be 'delicacies'!] has a higher adrenalin content in the meat, adrenalin softens the fibres, makes the meat taste sweeter.I don't like my meat 'sweet' I also hyper out on my own adrenalin,I don't need extra!.lol.
OK That clears it up particularily the blood part.
You're right, on a commercial scale there isn't really a great way to do it. If that's the best way then that's what you go with. I know a lot more about chicken slaughter than cattle (for cattle it's the diseases and cooking preparation I know most about! lol), so I think I'm going to look into it more since I'm curious now.
particularily the blood part.You're right, on a commercial scale there isn't really a great way to do it. If that's the best way then that's what you go with. I know a lot more about chicken slaughter than cattle (for cattle it's the diseases and cooking preparation I know most about! lol), so I think I'm going to look into it more since I'm curious now.
As a side-note, did any of you United Kingdomians here see the TV show about 'What We Eat'? I can't remember the exact name.. But it was based around a specially constructed slaughterhouse that demonstrated commercial slaughter methods, rigged out with TV cameras and windows in, so an audience could watch.. with a restaurant in the middle of it where they prepared the meat / cooked the meat and served it up to the guests.
There were four of the shows, demonstrating the different methods used for Pork / Beef / Lamb / Chicken. Reactions from the 'audience' in the restaurant varied from "Well, that makes me feel a lot more comfortable about eating meat" to "I'll never eat meat again! I feel sick! But I might eat it in a few weeks...".
It was meant to bring home the reality of killing / eating animals, since as a nation (indeed as a 'civilised Western' society) we've become massively detached from the whole 'killing' aspect of our food. We just see it all wrapped up in packages, and don't even think about how it got there
.
It certainly was an eye-opener, although nothing that I didn't expect. If anything, I found myself feeling impressed at how skilled the workers were, especially when it came to the skinning.. And also how stringent the tests performed for quality of the meat seemed to be at each stage. The method demonstrated for the mammals was indeed the 'bolt gun', although the viewers were reassured that the bolt completely stunned / knocked the animal entirely unconscious, and as such they would feel no pain whilst the bleed took place.
As for the validity of this - who knows? The animals did twitch, but this can easily be put down to random neurone-firing and adrenaline-related muscle spasms that occur as the blood drains from the body. Either way, at the end of the day.. Our society demands quite literally tonnes of meat every single day. I challenge anybody to provide a more humane way of killing animals that will produce amounts of meat even vaguely close to the currently used methods. Can there really be a 'humane' way to produce meat en-masse?
Chickens were killed on a giant assembly line, whereby they were hung up by their feet and dipped into a charged pool of water.. Electrocuting and killing them instantly. The other chickens didn't seem phased in the slightest as each one before them went in, and it seemed to be 'humane' (indeed, as humane as killing on an assembly-line can be?!). The sight of the machine that did it all though was rather disturbing, with all of its various parts designed to de-feather / boil / etc.. in a gentle manner whilst the chicken is on its way to be processed by hand. I soon got over it, though.
It was all quite interesting.. For me, at least. I apologise if anybody's squeamish and now feels ill. That wasn't my intention. However, I think it should be noted that the program's message was an important one - i.e. it was trying to drive home a connection between killing the animals / preparing the animals.. and the meat that you see in your pre-processed ready meals / up on the shelves.
Anyway, sorry for taking this topic even more off-track.
Elem
There were four of the shows, demonstrating the different methods used for Pork / Beef / Lamb / Chicken. Reactions from the 'audience' in the restaurant varied from "Well, that makes me feel a lot more comfortable about eating meat" to "I'll never eat meat again! I feel sick! But I might eat it in a few weeks...".
It was meant to bring home the reality of killing / eating animals, since as a nation (indeed as a 'civilised Western' society) we've become massively detached from the whole 'killing' aspect of our food. We just see it all wrapped up in packages, and don't even think about how it got there
.It certainly was an eye-opener, although nothing that I didn't expect. If anything, I found myself feeling impressed at how skilled the workers were, especially when it came to the skinning.. And also how stringent the tests performed for quality of the meat seemed to be at each stage. The method demonstrated for the mammals was indeed the 'bolt gun', although the viewers were reassured that the bolt completely stunned / knocked the animal entirely unconscious, and as such they would feel no pain whilst the bleed took place.
As for the validity of this - who knows? The animals did twitch, but this can easily be put down to random neurone-firing and adrenaline-related muscle spasms that occur as the blood drains from the body. Either way, at the end of the day.. Our society demands quite literally tonnes of meat every single day. I challenge anybody to provide a more humane way of killing animals that will produce amounts of meat even vaguely close to the currently used methods. Can there really be a 'humane' way to produce meat en-masse?
Chickens were killed on a giant assembly line, whereby they were hung up by their feet and dipped into a charged pool of water.. Electrocuting and killing them instantly. The other chickens didn't seem phased in the slightest as each one before them went in, and it seemed to be 'humane' (indeed, as humane as killing on an assembly-line can be?!). The sight of the machine that did it all though was rather disturbing, with all of its various parts designed to de-feather / boil / etc.. in a gentle manner whilst the chicken is on its way to be processed by hand. I soon got over it, though
. It was all quite interesting.. For me, at least. I apologise if anybody's squeamish and now feels ill
. That wasn't my intention. However, I think it should be noted that the program's message was an important one - i.e. it was trying to drive home a connection between killing the animals / preparing the animals.. and the meat that you see in your pre-processed ready meals / up on the shelves.Anyway, sorry for taking this topic even more off-track
.Elem
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WillowMoon
Vegetarianism.
Oh my gosh! Thanks for the gruesome stuff you guys. Maybe I'll have a rethink about becoming veggie!!!
A rather green looking Stella.
A rather green looking Stella.
Just remember that plants die too... and we are no more kind to them. Unless you are a Janist. However, the Janist diet is the fastest way to malnutrition I can think of.
Like many moral dilemmas, there are no easy answers here.
Like Eretik, I have a dietary issue that makes it practically impossible to be vegetarian without being sick... I can't digest "simple" carbs very well, and must take an almost atkins like diet in order to stay healthy.
Just make sure, before you go into that completely, that you have no problems with yeast. *Everything* pre-processed for vegetarians has yeast extracts in it, and it's the easiest way to get certain B vitamins. Also, hope you like Tofu and Lentils! They are your friends. Start experimenting with cooking TVP, which is a life saver for when you want meat!
Like many moral dilemmas, there are no easy answers here.
Like Eretik, I have a dietary issue that makes it practically impossible to be vegetarian without being sick... I can't digest "simple" carbs very well, and must take an almost atkins like diet in order to stay healthy.
Just make sure, before you go into that completely, that you have no problems with yeast. *Everything* pre-processed for vegetarians has yeast extracts in it, and it's the easiest way to get certain B vitamins. Also, hope you like Tofu and Lentils! They are your friends. Start experimenting with cooking TVP, which is a life saver for when you want meat!
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