Offended by karma

[Kolohe Redux]

I don't want to offend anyone who believes in it, but this is a serious question. I believe that it is good to be kind and positive most of the time, but it's not so much that I think I'm going to get something out of it. Sure, the positive aspect is fine and uplifting- if you're kind and do good things you'll be rewarded- so if something bad happens anyway does that mean you weren't good enough? It kind of smacks of faith healers blaming the patient for not believing enough. For those who believe karma is fairly direct- Do you think abused children and refugees who suffered atrocities in war torn countries are being punished for something? Maybe they were really bad in a past life?

Kolohe

[oracle's child]

i think it's a mixed bag quite honestly. from things i've been through and witnessed over the years i think it could be anything (what you put out- you get back, other people's prayers, generational curses, the cards you're dealt when you came into the world, etc.). i mean, who really knows? maybe it's just something very personal and different for each person.

[thatguy]

I think the concept that terrible misfortune is the result of you not having
have been a good person at some undetermined point in the past is one
of the worst, destructive and discordant suggestions ever put forward. It
puts the idea into peoples heads that maybe they deserve to take a
beating, be it metaphorical or literal.

I think this idea enslaves the mind.

I believe that the only force which will consistently punish you for your
past misdeeds is yourself.

I believe that compassion can be cultivated in the complete absence of
fear of retribution.

However, there is a way of looking at Karma or similar concepts, not in
terms of 'good' and 'bad' but in terms of a basic perceived principal of
reality that every event is the result of some other event: its cause. I
happen to think that perceived causal relationships are at least partially
illusory, but that's a different topic.

Kolohe, I think it's really great that your aim is to seek goodness and
kindness in the absence of the possibilty of reward. A very respectable
and realistic quest.

To those who disagree with my beliefs, I hope you're not offended by my
statements. I mean no insult to anyone who believes differently and I'd
be happy to hear opposing views as well. We're all a bit in the dark when
it comes to knowing "what's true".

cheers,

T. Guy

[AkanaAnash]

Kolohe,

Well spoken! I call Karma , Ma'at. The Great Divine One of Truth and Justice (she's awesome, you know...It's Karma and Dharma put together...


I feel it's never as simple as it seems. Maat continues to make sure Balance reigns in the universe, but who wants a universe where it's all cut and dry?

There has to be randomness...free will.

I don't feel as though everything is completely controlled all the time, so there's the opportunity for Growth and Change.

I'd reply to you that there is the reality that some abused children or victims of wars have indeed received the benefits of Divine Justice...that they were, in their previous lives child abusers or war mongers...but the universe is too complex to drop everything into one category.

To add to that, there's the lack of the "long term" thinking that would make one predisposed to find such a dichotomy.
An abused child may work for the Spirits in the long run by becoming an abuse counselor...a soldier comes into a village and shoots someone who may become the next Hitler.

I'm currently joining the protest over the chnese guvernmts handling of the situation in Tybet and Berhmah (note...I've changed the spellingz here to avoid being detected by the flag-bots)
But the suffering in these places is again raising global awareness of the problem.

I think it's easy to blame the gods, but it's wiser to simply watch and contemplate...

(sorry, I don't mean to come off preachy...I used to have this same problem with yhwh, but I got over it when I realized he doesn't exist)

[Heka]

i believe in karma but have never thought about it like this before.

im not sure what i think about the abused children etc being punished for a past life. but i think Thet has a point in that those people with rough lives possibly becoming abuse consellors and such. its all rather interesting

Blessings Heka

[hedge*]

The word Karma seems to be branded about so much these days that I feel it has lost it's true meaning.
Karma is a Sanskrit word and a concept of relgions born in India, meaning 'action, effect, destiny.' In Hinduism and, later, Buddhism and Sikhism, it is the sum of a person's actions, regarded as determining that person's future states of existence. The effects of those deeds actively create all that is to happen and determine every present and future experience, thus completely excluding random chance.

What a load of piffle.
I've said it once and I'll say it again - Karma Schmarma.

The whole concept that we are punished for things we did in our past life is absolutely absurd to me. Anyone who sits there and tries to tell me that a 5 year old child is raped and murdered because of some deed they did in a past life will feel my wrath.

If Karma existed then what would be the point of it all?
If our deeds and actions were already mapped out why bother living at all?
Where's the universal justice if we are punished and yet have no idea of what we are being punished for?
How are the lessons learnt if we don't carry some rememberence from past lives so as we know WHY we are being punished?

Our souls are not accountable for what we do - our bodies are.

Now if you talk about karma in the misused sense, Karma being the universal principle of cause and effect - we reap what we sow but in this life not future lives, then I'd be an idiot not to recognise it - that's just common sense.

[Kolohe Redux]

Thank you for the responses. Good point that some destruction is necessary to allow new growth- and sometimes that growth can even come about in unexpected ways. It is difficult to find a spiritual concept that explains why some people tend to get what seems like more than a fair share of misfortune, we really don't know why. thatguy and Hedge both nailed the gist of my objection to the system that perpetuated the caste system in India for centuries quite elegantly, thank you.

Since we really don't know why bad things can happen to good people, I prefer a philosophy that gives them as much free will, support and benefit of the doubt as possible. Dharma and as you reap so shall you sow, I like, for the most part. The part we have control of is what we put into the cosmic soup pot, if it's good and well thought out, chances are what we get out will be good too, but there's no guarantee, sometimes despite our best efforts, it goes bad. Rain falls on the just and the unjust. On the subject of victims of abuse, it's pretty common for the person being abused to think if they are better and nicer things will get better and to bend over backwards trying. Sometimes as you reap so shall you sow breaks down, at a point where you're throwing all your good intentions, energies and efforts into a situation that's gone horribly bad better to sow some negativity and destruction in the short term throw out whats gone bad- and then start over with the good stuff. It does enslave the mind to think that injustice may be a punishment for bad things you've done even in this life, unfortunately the people who believe that are often some of the meekest and nonharmful people around.

Thet, I'd like to think Ma'at is there weighing things out and making sure it's right in the end. I like that you're writing about Sekhmet. There's such a perception of the Goddess as kind, benevolent ever loving and giving earth mother. Which is also fine for most part. Sometimes we may need to pause in being good and kind to tap into the force of that fierce warrior for justice that does not tolerate bigots, abusers or oppression.

Kolohe

[AkanaAnash]

Kolohe,

Awesome. Sakhmat rox tha house!

Hedge,

I'm afraid I'm gonna hafta have just a scrape of that wrath.

As a human, any singular incidence of child abuse brings that same
"I will f*cking kill you" response to me as well, but
I know, philosophically, there's no way that any of us can determine everything the NtJr have planned.

A friend related to me that they were @ Diznee Land a while back and witnessed a father beating his child. They then called security and nothing was done, etc...
Now, as a thinker...(and as one who has studied Dharmic writings) I could say..."I will do nothing...for it is the Karma of the situation...and none of my concern"
But as a caretaker, I can tell you I have, stepped in between situations like that.

Again, I have to say, I believe it's about intent.

Perhaps I was meant to be in the aforementioned situations TO do something...as my Desire dictated, which may or may not have brought about something better for those concerned.

Perhaps the situation itself was simply meant for me to contemplate and would be forgotten by those concerned except me...

Perhaps I was meant to do nothing...but my gut tells me better.

The important part here is that, baring semantics, we don't try to fit everything into little boxes and "this person is wrong" or "that person is right" makes for a lot of headaches if you ask me.

[hedge*]

You misunderstand me Thet.
My point was about karma and karmarites claiming that when something bad happens to somebody it's because of something they did in a past life.

I won't have someone explain a child being raped and killed because of a past life incident.

[Kolohe Redux]

I really am not so fierce. I do think you have to consider intention. As a mom, I've had moments where I can understand how someone would lose patience and beat their kids. I don't do that! But, I can see how a parent might truly love their child at a very basic level, but maybe that's the only way they know or they can't control the stress and frustration. If I saw someone beating their kid to the extent that serious injury was imminent I would definitely intervene or call security. I actuality, I have tried to intervene when I've seen overly frustrated parent starting to wind up on their kids, but it's nothing so heroic, I don't criticize or give advice, I'll compliment the kid on being cute or ask the parent if they're okay or sympathize that it's frustrating for me when my kids misbehave when we're out too. Usually the parent calms down, in the long run I think people get a lot more out of positivity and teaching than punishment.

Back more on the original topic, I believe a large part of the reason these concepts of an afterlife or retribution for past lives was promoted was because it was a good way to keep the peasants in line. Be meek, follow the rules, don't be concerned with building up treasures on earth, endure suffering and you'll be richly rewarded in the next life or the afterlife

Kolohe

[Heka]

i think that your past life does affect you some how, but mayb not with karma.

and im completly with hedge on the 'kid getting beaten because of past life' think being a lot of crock. that just doesnt sink in with me well.

and kolohe youve got a good point about keeping peasants in line. i think that alot of things can be explained simply like this.

Blessings


Heka

[AkanaAnash]

Ko' and Hedge,

I hear what both of you are saying and the points are valid.

I suppose I'm coming from a place that wants to give
a broad definition of Karma to people who might not
know anything about it...or use it only in the American sense.

I wasn't making the argument with either of you neccesarily,
I was simply saying something about Dharma that
may've needed pointing out.

Thet

[Penelope]

I met a Buddhist monk last year who took the concept of karma less literally - to him, it wasn't that you get direct, tangible rewards or punishments for your actions, but simply that you are affected by your own actions in the sense that they affect the world, which you then have to live in. He didn't feel that we get results exactly proportional to our actions, meted out by some cosmic judge. As he eloquently put it "if you're a jerk, then you have made the world that much more full of jerks, and then you have to live in that world."

I liked how it affirmed personal responsibility and consequence without any pat answers. I too am offended by really literal interpretations of karma/the law of return.

[JBRaven]

Our past lives have no true consequence on this one execpt as a learning tool. Maybe it is a collective Karma that "causes" bad things happen to good people.

I know this is going to upset people and I have said it before, using the Five year old child being raped it is what must happen why is it bad. No experance is a bad experance. The sexual assault has to happen for the cosmic balance to take place. Don't get me wrong I think it is as sick as the next sane person and I understand what it does to a child, thus would try to stop it if I had an idea it was happening. But if it to be nothing we do can stop it and then it can't be a bad thing. I know it is heartless but horrid things happen and you just have to suck it up and make yourself from it the earlier you learn that the better.

[The Dragon]

i think it's a mixed bag quite honestly. from things i've been through and witnessed over the years i think it could be anything (what you put out- you get back, other people's prayers, generational curses, the cards you're dealt when you came into the world, etc.). i mean, who really knows? maybe it's just something very personal and different for each person.

I like your take on karma the best!!