Christian Wicca

[Starwitch]

This is a bit late in the thread, but just so everyone is aware, not all witches believe in the three-fold law (myself included). "Harm none, do what you will" and "Whatever you do comes back to you threefold" are Wiccan beliefs, not the beliefs of all witches. I personally don't believe either of those.

[Guest]

I never thought of that . I'm Wiccan personnally, and I just took for granted that that was a general Wiccan thing to believe in the three-fold law. But, now I know better dont I. I also understand that this isn't just a forum of Wiccan either....lol!

[Starwitch]

Well, you're right to think that it's a Wiccan thing to believe in the 3-fold law. It's the Wiccans who made that law up. And I don't think it's any ancient law like you might think. The guy who thought up Wicca wrote his book in the 1960's or something like that. He took some old beliefs and mixed it with some of his own thoughts and made Wicca. I'm pretty sure he made up the 3-fold law himself, though I could be wrong. I would have to hear some pretty convincing examples of how something a person did came back to them times three to believe in some arbitrary rule like that. It's not as bad as saying you'll go to hell, but it's a scare tactic nonetheless.

You're right that this is not a Wiccan forum. It's a pagan/witchcraft forum, though Wiccans are welcome. Many witches believe that ALL witchcraft is Wicca and so they therefore are Wiccan also. But when they do their research they find that Wicca is a specific religion that some witches follow. Most witches are kitchen witches (no religion) or have some other beliefs. Wicca is just the most popular one in the media and the most well-known type of witchcraft. There are too many rules in Wicca for me. If I wanted that many rules I would have just remained a Christian.

[waterglyph]

It's not as bad as saying you'll go to hell, but it's a scare tactic nonetheless.

*lol* I don't know if I would say that it was meant to be a scare tatic, though I would agree that what may people have certianly turned it into that.

The Rule of 3 (or, depending on the trad, the Law of Return) is just saying that the energies you send out come back to you. I wouldn't call that a scare tatic because it doesn't claim you have to act a certian way - simply that what goes around comes around.

I'd say it only becomes a threat when people (fluffies) spout off all the time that you have to be "good" otherwise the big bad Law of Three will bite you in the arse.

(And what do you mean Gerald Gardner made Wicca up in the 60's?! blue_shocked )

[JBRaven]

I believe in Karma. It goes hand and hand with the "everything is a cycle" belief. I don't think it is a threat it is a fact. Every action has an equal reaction.

[Starwitch]

You're right, the fluffy bunny Wiccans DO have quite a tendency to spout it off like a threat and I'm sure that is exactly how they mean it to sound.

As for Gerald Gardner, I was guessing at that info from what I recalled reading about it previously. It was actually in the 50's now that I looked it up. Here is a good article about the history of Wicca.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Wicca

I really think all people calling themselves Wiccan should know this stuff. Most of them do not even realize there are over a hundred "Wiccan Laws" that they are supposed to be following, including this Christian sounding crap, "As a man loveth a woman by mastering her, so should the Wicca love the gods by being mastered by them." You can read the rest of them at the link below, or look up "Wiccan Laws" in a search engine and look for a page that has over a hundred of them listed, not just the basic ones like "Harm none."

http://www.wicca.utvinternet.com/BOS/bos1.html



This site here has some good articles also:
http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/hist.html

[JBRaven]

These "laws" make it seem like Wiccans were burned at the stake. THis is sad.

[Starwitch]

"Burned at the stake?" I don't understand. I didn't really read all the laws, so maybe I'm missing something. I have read them in the past though.

[JBRaven]

It says that there are Christan spies everywhere. And these are the best.



PERSECUTION
61.Keep all thoughts of the craft from your mind.
62.If the torture be too great to bear, say "I will confess. I cannot
bear this torture. What do you want me to say?"
63.If they try to make you speak of the Brotherhood, do not.
64.But if they try to make you speak of impossibilities such as flying through
the air, consorting with a Christian devil or sacrificing children, or
eating men's flesh,
65.To obtain relief from torture say "I had an evil dream, I was beside
myself, I was crazed."
66.Not all magistrates are bad, if there be an excuse, they may show
mercy.
67.If you have confessed aught, deny it afterwards, say you babbled
under torture, say you knew not what you said.
68.If you are condemned, fear not.
69.The Brotherhood is powerful and will help you to escape if you stand
steadfast, but if you betray aught there is no hope for you in this life
or in that to come.
70.Be sure, if steadfast you go to the pyre, drugs will reach you, you will
feel naught. You go to death and what lies beyond, the ecstasy of the
goddess.

[Starwitch]

Yeah, that's pretty paranoid for the time we live in now.

[waterglyph]

*lol* Thanks for the links , but I already knew about our "proud" Gardenian heritage. (Maybe sarcasim doesn't suit me as well as I'd like. *lol*)

I've read all of the 161 Laws before, and thanks to them, I don't consider myself a Gardenian. Many of them are, like you've all mentioned, pretty paranoid and often sexist. I don't know if its in the Laws, but Gardner enforced that the High Prestress was to step down once she got older because she didn't reflect the pretty maiden form of the Goddess. (I think that might have happened to Doreen Valentine as a matter of fact, but I'm not 100% on that. *lol*)

Anyway, in the spectrum of Wicca, I personally fall somewhere in the middle. I'm not a new-ager who wants to count anything as Wicca, but I don't follow the "old school" trads. (Gardenian, Alexandrian, etc.) So, a lot of Gardner's works I don't really care much for. *lol*

I do like the Principles of Wiccan Beliefs set up by the Council of American Witches from the 70's though. It's one of the few lists of "rules" that I don't mind sticking with.

I know there's a lot of newbies to Wicca here, so if you haven't read these - do so! And read Gardner's stuff too. We have to know where we've come from before we can move forward.

The Principles of Wiccan Belief

[Starwitch]

Good advice to the newbies. They should be educated about what they're getting into (if they are, indeed, getting into it.)

[JBRaven]

Those are more agreeable to me and fit my ( and many others) vaules more soundly.

[Guest]

Yea, that stuff is pretty interesting. I consider myself a newbie, mainly because I have no "structured" type of study or whatever. I might even be the youngest on the boards....hmm...no actually...of all the people I know....Moonstone** is the youngest...lol.... But, i've been interested in Wicca and Paganism for about 3 years really, and recently took it farther. I am not any specific tradition. I'm more eclectic and have my own thought and ideas on Wicca. I believe in karma like JBraven. That no matter WHAT you do, it will come back to you somehow....maybe in 3 different ways, but ya never know. Anyway.....i hope ya get my point...or something like it for that matter.