Everything Under the Moon

I think of Wicca more as, "If you checked 5 or more off this list, you might be a Wiccan!"

I think that's a pretty good summary, Xiao. It's largely what I mean when I say you should follow the Rede if you want to be a Wiccan, which is a central tenet, rather than the central tenet.

To me, the thing about the rede is it's not meant to be a law, even in Gardnerian Wicca. Rede means something more like advice, so if one chooses not to follow that particular bit of advice at all times, I don't think it's really necessarily a deal breaker in itself.

I'm really talking about someone who outright rejects it, rather than someone who generally behaves in the manner described. I get the feeling I just haven't been very clear.

Xiao's examples are positive, and illuminating; I follow the Wheel of the Year, but don't have any time for the Lord and Lady - they're not part of my particular pantheon, nor something I can meaningfully relate to. With regard to the Rede, I completely reject its main theme because I believe that causing harm is justifiable.

Under this set of circumstances, there are many who would call themselves "Wiccan" by virtue of following the Wheel of the Year. To me, I think that's inaccurate because of the approach toward other central tenets.

Again, I'm not saying you should literally follow the Rede (or the other examples) to the letter. That type of slavish adherence helps nobody.

But if you flatly reject core tenets of Wicca, then you can't be Wiccan.

There simply has to be a line in the sand, else the word itself becomes completely meaningless.

But if you flatly reject core tenets of Wicca, then you can't be Wiccan.

There simply has to be a line in the sand, else the word itself becomes completely meaningless.

Hear hear. Well put.

This is like you can't claim you're a Catholic if you don't believe in Apostle's Creed and you can't be a Jew if you don't believe in Shema.

Wicca is a religion like Catholicism and Judaism and like every other religion in the world, your "membership label" in the religion is established by adhering to the beliefs and laws (which is the Wiccan Rede in Wicca) and practices (Wiccan Rites) of the religion. You can't reject belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and still call yourself a Christian. And so too with Wicca. You can't claim you are a Wiccan yet can't totally reject some Wiccan values, beliefs, principles and moral codes which includes all the words in the Rede.

In my humble opinion, one can't choose what is to believe what is not to believe when you're in a religion like Wicca. I also don't think one can be 'partly Wiccan' because one only picks some parts in the Rede or some parts in some Wiccan principles or rites. Why? The same reason, I can't be partly married. It's like on Monday, Wednesday and Friday I'll be married. And on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, I'll be single. It's really absurd because by definition, commitment is whole. We don't give only half of our hearts to anything that we care and love about. So too, one will never know the truth of the Rede and the beauty of Wicca if in his/her heart, one think he/she is only 'partly Wiccan.'

Moreover, I understand that most Wiccans nowadays don't make these kinds of commitments anymore. They absorb the values and ideas they have heard or read, but there are no real commitments. Many Wiccans today are experimenting. They kept these particular phrases for instance:

Cast the circle thrice about,
To keep the evil spirits out.

This means that when they do magick, they cast a circle around themselves. They do this three times because the number three stands for the three phases of The Lord and The Lady.

When the Wheel begins a turn,
Let the Beltane fires burn
When the Wheel hath turned to Yule,
Light the log and let Pan rule.

They agree with this since they're observing both Beltane, the spring sabbath and Yule the winter one, that both sit at opposite ends of the wheel of the year.

But these parts of the Rede for example:

Mind the threefold law you should,
Three times bad and three times good.

They don't believe in this because they don't believe in the Threefold Law, karma and law of compensation.

Where the rippling waters flow,
Cast a stone and truth you'll know.

They don't believe that their magickal actions would spread, like the ripples caused by a stone cast on the water, affecting everyone and everything around since they do practice malefic magick, sorcery and hexcraft!

See, that doesn't sound very Wiccan at all. The first verse of the Rede is very clear to say that:

Bide the Wiccan Law you must,
In perfect love and perfect trust.

Which means in my understanding that Wiccans MUST abide and respect the laws of Wicca lovingly and with perfect trust.

My fiancee for instance who once identified herself for many many years had realized this and had searched for truth and questioned her beliefs because of this fact.

If one wanted a label in my opinion -- Wiccan, Druid, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Taoist, Hermetic or Encohian, one should wanted all of it. If you're a psychologist or a writer or a mother, a wife or whatever. I believe you're not 'partly' any of these identities. Take the label with wholeness. One should be whole Wiccan abiding all its laws.

That being said, if you don't really agree with some of its law and principle then don't put labels to yourself anymore OR there's a term called eclectic with and syncretist pagan, I think it would perfectly suit for you. Therefore, one can still believe in some parts of the Rede and at the same practice other sorts of magick like maleficium and have a different view that the threefold law is not a strict metaphysical scale. And yes, eclectism and syncretism have contradicting and conflicting opinions, customs and practices all under the same roof. But since you're not bound to any religious law, you can love and accept every beliefs even if they seem very contradicting. Realizing this expands our boundaries.

Like I've said, I fully support the idea that Wicca is not just whatever one wants, and that it is it's own tradition with specific practices and beliefs. (Hence why I am not Wiccan, I practice a very different tradition.) However, I am also in agreement with Xiao Rong. I do not think defining Wicca with one must adhere to every single last aspect to be Wiccan really works either, particularly narrowing that down to the (short) rede. Especially given how Wicca is not meant to be as 'strict' and dogmatic as some other religions out there.

Like I've said, I fully support the idea that Wicca is not just whatever one wants, and that it is it's own tradition with specific practices and beliefs. (Hence why I am not Wiccan, I practice a very different tradition.) However, I am also in agreement with Xiao Rong. I do not think defining Wicca with one must adhere to every single last aspect to be Wiccan really works either, particularly narrowing that down to the (short) rede. Especially given how Wicca is not meant to be as 'strict' and dogmatic as some other religions out there.

I don't want to speak for him, but I reckon Seraphin would probably agree.

It's more a case of people rejecting the basic principles and still clinging to the term, rather than suggesting that everyone should dogmatically follow every aspect as laid down. For example, while going through the Rede, I think it's appropriate for someone to say "I agree with this in principle, and will try to apply it". People make mistakes. We're not perfect. But trying to be... Well, that's the trick.

I think the problem I have with Wicca. .. Is the same as everyone who thinks they have an Indian ancestor says " my great grandmother was Cherokee ". Why is every Native American anyone ever knew of in a person's family always Cherokee ? Hah.


It's because Cherokee are the most publicized. And same goes for Wicca.

Wicca is the go to " witch umbrella term". People find out I am a witch and instantly I hear. " blessed be". And they have picked this up from tv and movies and other venues of commercialism.

I guess THAT is my biggest problem. Those who just decide. Hey it's Halloween and I feel witchy. I am going to put on black clothes and be Wiccan now. It's not a problem with genuine wiccans ( or genuine Cherokee .. I'm part Tsalagi myself so I have a right to be offended ) . The problem comes when everyone assumes every witch is Wiccan. .. And even most witches who are drawn believe all witches are Wiccan because they didn't know anything else existed.

Wicca is the go to " witch umbrella term". People find out I am a witch and instantly I hear. " blessed be". And they have picked this up from tv and movies and other venues of commercialism.

I guess THAT is my biggest problem. Those who just decide. Hey it's Halloween and I feel witchy. I am going to put on black clothes and be Wiccan now. It's not a problem with genuine wiccans ( or genuine Cherokee .. I'm part Tsalagi myself so I have a right to be offended ) . The problem comes when everyone assumes every witch is Wiccan. .. And even most witches who are drawn believe all witches are Wiccan because they didn't know anything else existed.

Things are getting better. "Blessed Be" (I use it, never heard it from TV{got it from a bumper sticker}) is a whole lot better than being dunked, pressed, hung, or burned at the stake.....

Wicca is the go to " witch umbrella term". People find out I am a witch and instantly I hear. " blessed be". And they have picked this up from tv and movies and other venues of commercialism.

I guess THAT is my biggest problem. Those who just decide. Hey it's Halloween and I feel witchy. I am going to put on black clothes and be Wiccan now. It's not a problem with genuine wiccans ( or genuine Cherokee .. I'm part Tsalagi myself so I have a right to be offended ) . The problem comes when everyone assumes every witch is Wiccan. .. And even most witches who are drawn believe all witches are Wiccan because they didn't know anything else existed.

Things are getting better. "Blessed Be" (I use it, never heard it from TV{got it from a bumper sticker}) is a whole lot better than being dunked, pressed, hung, or burned at the stake.....

HA! Truth !!!

I started with reading wiccan books because they seemed the most available. After that I found Im a witch, wiccan , hedge,kitchen , garden witch ,black,white, Italian,Essex, Welsh, etc,etc, I have to find the key that fits the lock,everyones diffrent I consider myselft to be an eclectic witch this key fits my lock.I incorporate most all practices that are in my linage that is celtic and norse ,how do I put a name tag on my beliefs . Being such I choose to use all that encompasses my ancestry, well thats kind of a broad spectrum, so I see my self as eclectic trying by intuition to put the area of geographies and narrowing it down to celtic ,druid, german , norse and their pantheon of Gods so thats my version of eclectic,correct me if im wrong,its the best way I know of how to describe it.! it fits me just fine!

Most interesting thread in the world in my opinion.

To be honest, a person is whatever they consider themselves to be. If somebody says they're a Wiccan and they only do so because they believe in one thing taught in Wicca... Well who am I to question their faith?

@cernunnos I think the crux of the discussion here is "walking the walk" instead of just "talking about the walk".
True that we must choose to accept someones declaration on face value until they prove otherwise, but it is precisely the "proving otherwise" that is being discussed here I think.

With such a broad spectrum of beliefs falling under the Wicca umbrella it is difficult even as people who want to be classified as Wiccan, let alone the masses of those unwilling to bother to learn, to really say, "no that doesn't fit with the consensus you need to pick a different label".

Obviously there are people who aren't concerned with the label, but then there are some who want their label and they want it to mean something.

We are all humans. Classification and labeling to sort information is one of the things that took us from the caves to custom building caves with every possible feature so you can't really fault people who want to discriminate between information quickly.

@HopefulChild
I look at it this way: If somebody is truly misinformed and calling themselves "Wiccan" because they do not know otherwise, then it should be the duty of any informed to tell them that what they are practicing is not, by definition Wicca. However, if it is the matter of willful ignorance, I say let the ignorant ones have their bliss.

@HopefulChild
I look at it this way: If somebody is truly misinformed and calling themselves "Wiccan" because they do not know otherwise, then it should be the duty of any informed to tell them that what they are practicing is not, by definition Wicca. However, if it is the matter of willful ignorance, I say let the ignorant ones have their bliss.

Duty - hardly. But most pagans are willing to help others understand. So I know I would try and explain what Wicca is, not really why the person is wrong. Most people who turn to the pagan path are people with great desire to learn.
If the ignorance is willful, however, there is nothing I or anyone can do.

Search this forum.
There are people who care about each other.
There are people who want to share of themselves.
There are people who are drawn to nature, and desire to be part of its mysticism.
There are people who are willing to follow what they feel, not what they are told.
This is not all there is to Wicca, but it's a pretty good start.

Search this forum.