Why not look to the supreme?

[Y0m]

All of the world's major religions teach that we can ourselves achieve God-hood, and that even these minor god's look to one supreme.

Why would we not then look to the supreme ourselves? Even though I know learning about and praying to the dimi-god's can be interesting.

I encourage all to find out this truth on their own. Seek the god in your heart.

I love you.

[JuniperBerry]

All of the world's major religions teach that we can ourselves achieve God-hood, and that even these minor god's look to one supreme.

Hmm. I appreciate the intent behind this post, and think it's a noble one, though a bit mistaken. Norse mythology doesn't teach that we can achieve godhood. The purpose of heathenry is to live a life and honor and truth because our actions today affect those of tomorrow. The purpose is to achieve community, and family and kinship. There's no effort to become one with a Supreme God or be godly ourselves.

There isn't any Supreme God, either. Odin is no better than Thor or a land wight. They have their enemies the jutons, but not because they are gods and better, but because the juton want to destory the world and everyone in it. The gods are family, and not better than us in any way, other than the fact that they are our elder ancestors.

[Y0m]

Okay, well taking out the first line of my post... it still stands as a valid argument.

I just can't see any wisdom in waking the dead (or our ancestors), when you say the purpose is to "live a life [of] honor and truth"

If there is no supreme in your view... no one nature surrounding everything then there is no unity, no truth in this view. Because what is truth really?

And if there is an ultimate, singular truth of EVERYTHING... then what is the point of distracting ourselves with the waking of people who are already dead... we will all die one day.


This is what I've gathered from studying three religions, Buddhism, Christianity, and Hinduism:

Hinduism, teaches that God (the supreme) comes in many names and forms, and the different religions are to satisfy people's different inclinations to want to believe various things about god. People want to personify something they do not understand.

But then like Wicca, or whatever people are claiming to be here, they have gods and ancestors and everything in between... even lower beings.

In a sacred text (Bhagavad Gita - see "I see innocence in your eyes" in my sig), it is said that worshiping these lower beings only brings you to them and you enjor for a while before repeating the same thing over, and impede one's evolution upwards.

Christianity, if you really pay attention to the words of the bible, without adding BS TV-craziness to it then you'll see the same thing more or less. The bible clearly says that it is foolish to listen to words of man who add words to the book. So look for yourself!

Buddhism, has one of the gentlest & direct ways of showing this. They don't even recommend the concept of god, or gods. They don't recommend the concept of ancestors. They want you to throw away all of your beliefs, because HOW CAN WE REALLY KNOW IF WE HOLD ON TO LIMITING BELIEFS? we must experience for ourselves, but we must be open with clear awareness. Then they, like Hinduism go in depth of teaching meditation and even teach faith and devotion to the practice itself. If you go back to the original teachings of Gautama Buddha, he even acknowledged that there were gods as expressed in the Hindu religion, but he was trying to reform Hinduism. He was trying to WAKE PEOPLE UP to the fact that there is something so much greater to be had then simple divination, rituals, sacrifices, etc. He wanted people to have the fruit and nourishment... not just candy.

Anyway that's what I see all this as.... simple candy for the mindless fools.

I say this so hopefully the wise will see...
But don't take it from me,
learn for yourself.
Love you!

[Serendipity]

Both of these views make the same assumption. That we view our craft as a religion involving worship of deities.

I’m a secular witch, or if you prefer an atheist witch, and I know I’m not alone in this belief or this approach to the craft.

“Truth” is a totally human concept as are right and wrong, good and bad, and so on.

When I practice the craft my “truth” is just as real as any religious person’s and my magic as powerful. When a religious person practices the craft the same can be said of her/his “truth” and power.

I’m not saying anyone here is wrong and I’m not trying to derail the thread. I just want anyone who is like me, and who reads this thread, to know that it is ok to take a non-religious approach to the craft and their own magical path and that it will be just as valid and valuable as those who take the religious path.

[JBRaven]

In my mind, just because I call on different aspects, like justice or wealth, I am still calling on the "one" because it is all the same energy. From Athena to Odin. God to Krishna they are all the same

I call on certain names because it aligns my mind with the energy I need. If I am attuning myself for justice, I would call to Mandanu not Yama. It is all about getting your own energies to match your will

[JuniperBerry]

Okay, well taking out the first line of my post... it still stands as a valid argument.

It is a valid argument, absolutely. I'm just putting it out there that it's not the only one..and yeah, without the first line it's a lot better. I probably wouldn't have replied at all if it weren't there.

I just can't see any wisdom in waking the dead (or our ancestors), when you say the purpose is to "live a life [of] honor and truth"

Heathenry can be pretty contradictory to neo-paganism, and it's a complex religion... Though the gods are our ancestors, they aren't human. Odin sired the heathen soul in us, and that made us folk, so he's the Allfather. But he's not dead, or human, though he is mortal.

To put everything really simply: When Ragnarok comes, Odin and the Gods will fight the forces that wish to destroy the earth. Any brave and honorable warrior that dies will fight with the gods on this day. We'll lose, that's written, but it's not the point. So it's important, now, to live as honorably as we can so that we can go to the halls of the gods and stand with them when Ragnarok comes. In very, very simple terms...it's like a fight between good and evil, and if there isn't enough good then evil will prevail.

If there is no supreme in your view... no one nature surrounding everything then there is no unity, no truth in this view. Because what is truth really?

I think the confusion comes when people equate the source of everything with Supreme Divinity. It's basically like saying that you will never be as good or as worthwhile as your very first ancestor. If we evolved from some strain of bacteria, that doesn't mean the bacteria is more Supreme or Divine. We're clearly more evolved, more intelligent, and more spiritual then that.

There didn't have to be some awesome, intelligent power behind the birth of the universe. Look at the Haldron Collider. Are we a Supreme and Ultimate source? Of course not, but who knows what these atoms could spawn. They could spawn life as complex as us, and Deities as complex as the ones we believe in.

I feel that the idea of One Supreme Divinity or Source, which wasn't present in several pre-Chrsitian beliefs, is a direct result OF Christian beliefs (for those coming from that background). It's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that there isn't one ultimate aspect of God out there, so people fall back into their monotheistic patterns and create a Supreme Ultimate Deity. It's safe, it's familiar, but yet far enough removed form 'their' version of god for you to be comfortable with it as your god. Most pagans are christians with wearing a polytheistic mask.



Hinduism, teaches that God (the supreme) comes in many names and forms, and the different religions are to satisfy people's different inclinations to want to believe various things about god. People want to personify something they do not understand.[/quote]

Which works for them. But isn't true for some. Like I said, there's no reason for me to look at my natural world, and see that first doesn't equal better, and assume that it's any different in the spiritual world. I don't meet a person and think they're just a weaker, less wonderful aspect of their greatx100 grandfather.

In a sacred text (Bhagavad Gita - see "I see innocence in your eyes" in my sig), it is said that worshiping these lower beings only brings you to them and you enjor for a while before repeating the same thing over, and impede one's evolution upwards.

In heathenism, there's not really a value system put on different spiritual races. We all share the world, the universe, we all work together (hopefully) and we deal with them as their nature warrants. I have children and I deal with them every day, that doesn't make me a child. I'm an adult dealing with children, or a human dealing with landvaettir, or a human dealing with the Aesir. There's no evolution of self into something of better spiritual form...I am what I am and I'm ok with that, because there isn't anything wrong with it, and I just hope to be the best me possible.

Christianity, if you really pay attention to the words of the bible, without adding BS TV-craziness to it then you'll see the same thing more or less. The bible clearly says that it is foolish to listen to words of man who add words to the book. So look for yourself!

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Anyway that's what I see all this as.... simple candy for the mindless fools.

I say this so hopefully the wise will see...
But don't take it from me,
learn for yourself.
Love you!

I respect that. It's not for me, but I can respect your view point.

[JuniperBerry]

Hmmm, I read over my last post ( and besides my quoting issues and some typos), I'm sort of bothered by how absolute I came across. This is definitely just my opinion, I don't think it's an absolute, or see all people as the way I stated, and think all ways are valid and true. I just happen to have MY way, which is no better or worse than anyone elses.

[Y0m]

Just wanted to get people thinking.
Glad I didn't start too much of "heat" ha. At least not yet...
Love.

[JuniperBerry]

Well if you do, I'll be ready!

[)O( Krystal Raven )O(]

In the concept of eternity, there are many realities. The reason I look unto, worship, speak with, and have visions of the ancestors of the world is because what was once will become again, in each cycle of consciousness and/or existence. Time and space are relative, mere tools of reference to break the universe into more comprehensible bits for the mortal mind. Ancestors and descendants are the same people.... we are who we have been.

[Y0m]

I do not know truth,
so in this way you are right,
I love you,
other than that I don't know much of anything.

[JuniperBerry]

In the concept of eternity, there are many realities. The reason I look unto, worship, speak with, and have visions of the ancestors of the world is because what was once will become again, in each cycle of consciousness and/or existence. Time and space are relative, mere tools of reference to break the universe into more comprehensible bits for the mortal mind. Ancestors and descendants are the same people.... we are who we have been.

Though my beliefs are different, I can appreciate this sentiment. Heathenry doesn't have a sense of reincarnation, but we do believe in Orlog and the fact that (my) entire life was influenced by the actions of my ancestors and that my life now will determine the lives of my descendants. That I'm intimately tied to, and alive, in those that live 2,000 years from now.

Y0m, you might like this quote by Kahlil Gibran:

Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."
Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."
For the soul walks upon all paths.
The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.
The soul unfolds itself like a lotus of countless petals.

[Ember Nightwolf]

I'd say that I look to what you might call "dimi-gods" because I can't believe that anything is completely black or white, and if there is a "supreme God", then he is beyond ours or any other human beings can comprehend. Although there may be a great Creator, I don't believe he pays individual attention to each miniscule being, sorry. So, well, that's generally why I, and probably some others don't look to the "Supreme God" for inspiration etc. Blessed Be, ENW