High priest/priestess

[Jonjonsalinas_]

So I have been practicing Wicca for about 7 years and I recently created a coven with other practitioners and we came about the issue of choosing a high priest and high priestess. As of now, we are thinking of choosing the male and female that have been practicing Wicca the longest. But I was wondering, what qualifies someone as a high priest/priestess? Is there a certain amount of years? Certain levels that have to be learned? Certain training?

Any responses would help! B.B.

[Firebird]

I know some groups have their H/Priest and H/Priestess, and that never changes. In my group we rotate that job between qualified apprentices, and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree members. Out of those people, the ritual assignments are placed, and whoever is leading the ritual chooses their qualified counterpart. When I say qualified...these are people who have gone through the dedication process and are working toward the next degree. I like the rotation process, as I have been a part of a group that has permanent HP & HPs, and for me, personally, I find that gets a little stale.
Also, in my group you are considered a Priest or Priestess until you get to 3r degree, then you are a High Priest/ess, and eligible to become clergy (we are an incorporated non-profit) Those of 3rd degree, sit on the counsel of elders, who make decisions for the group.
You might want to have a ceremony to dedicate those who would be Priest or Priestess, as a portal to their new position.
many blessings, Firebird

[Jonjonsalinas_]

Thank you so much! Another question: what are the 3 degrees? I see that a lot on here and I have yet to get an answer

[Xiao Rong]

Thank you so much! Another question: what are the 3 degrees? I see that a lot on here and I have yet to get an answer

This is probably the most well-rounded and straightforward description of what the three degrees are and what they mean:

Seekers and Guides: The Three Degrees of Wicca

[Firebird]

I read that article and there is much about it I disagree with. She makes it sound like everyone is going to have to get naked and/or boink someone for their 3rd degree. While I do agree that it could take years and years to get to 3rd degree she doesn't really describe what that would entail. I also am very surprised at the statement under requirements of "if they give you assignments be cautious". Frankly, I would say if they are not giving you assignments...be cautious.

I think the degree system is different in every group, and that would have to be something that was outlined for a potential initiate in each group. So the candidate would have an idea what they were getting into. Initiation into a coven should never be taken lightly.

This is a section of an interview with Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone taken from the PaganPages.org

PP: You have retained a three-degree system of initiation in your coven. Please tell us more. How much emphasis do you put on life experience in training a Witch?

Janet and Gavin: For a while we very concerned that the degree system as we had been taught it was becoming hierarchical. You have to remember that its origins are not in any form of traditional European pagan practise but from Ceremonial Ritual Magic and Freemasonry. Our experience was that the degree system had become more about how long you had been in the Coven rather than how much you had learnt or how much spiritual connection you had made during that time.

First we tried to do away with the degree system completely, going to a one-initiation system. Very quickly we found this wasn’t enough; it didn’t fulfill the needs of the coven, so we introduced a dedication ritual, and eventually a third level – an eldership. Well, we ended up eventually not with three levels but four! We began to look at why this was. It really gets down to human psychology and the need for all of us to achieve goals. If we don’t have them part of our own psyche sets them for us anyway, a process the psychologist Abraham Maslow called Self-Actualization.

Our ‘degree’ system, if you can call it that is very different to the one we were actually taught. It is based not just on the accumulation of knowledge and magical skill but also on spiritual achievement. For us, initiation must be a spiritual experience, a spiritual ‘epiphany’ so to speak. As Janet mentioned earlier, we strongly believe in the concept of ‘there is only initiator’ and that is the divine manifest as God or Goddess not ourselves. This means that we believe that initiation can take place in the mundane life of the witch; in fact we don’t separate the mundane from the magical. All life is magical; therefore an experience that changes you spiritually can take place in any area of your life, not just in the magic circle. We try to reflect this in our initiation rites, and therefore also recognize that magical and spiritual wisdom can be obtained outside of circle.

The other thing is that we teach that this system is irrelevant outside the circle. It is not intended to be a system of hierarchy, which should be accepted by the wider pagan community. All our initiates know this and don’t make a big deal out being first or second or third degree out in the wider community. There is no ego attached to the system.

So that is the opinion of a pretty well respected witch and I am inclined to think the same way, that is why in the overview below it will say at least a year and a day, sometimes it can take much longer, on the flip side if someone who has been a HP in another group comes to us and wants initiation we may adopt them in, but they would still have to circle with us for a year first...Part of the idea of a year and a day is not only are you celebrating the anniversary of your dedication the the Goddess or the group, it really thins out the people who are not serious!!

I could give you an idea of the levels in my group:
After you have been circling with us for at least a year, you can request dedication...
0. Dedications happen at Imbolc. Then you train for at least a year and a day
1. 1st degree and Initiation and the title of Priest/ess; comes at least a year and a day after dedication.
2. 2nd degree comes at least a year and a day after first degree
3. 3rd degree and the title of High Priest/ess comes at least a year and a day after second degree
4. Request for ordination can be anytime after the third degree.

So there are essentially up to 5 years involved before you can be considered for clergy.
I won't go into the contents of the lessons for each degree, except for the challenges get harder and there is a couple trials to go through, 2nd degree and beyond also teach the younger ones, and if you want to be clergy you are going to have to take some psychology courses.
Like I said above 3rd degrees sit on the counsel of Elders, who are responsible for overseeing the "church", as non-profit we have to run it like any other incorporated business.

Thanks, Firebird

[Xiao Rong]

Oh, that's not what I took away from that article at all. My understanding is that a lot of the skyclad / Great Rite initiation rituals were related to early Wiccan traditions (like Gardnerian Wicca), and I thought the author was pretty clear that initiation rituals are different for different traditions. I thought the important part was about what initiation is and what it isn't (namely, becoming part of a lineage and tradition, as opposed to just some title you throw around for legitimacy).

[Jonjonsalinas_]

Hmmm so xiao and firebird, what I collect from both the input is that a degree system is mainly created by a coven itself, yes? Also that in order to obtain the next degree, one must have some sort of spiritual understanding of the Craft? As well as be able to preform the next 'level' of magick. Correct me if I'm wrong please

[Firebird]

sounds like you have it right.
I'm going to post an amazon link (something I don't usually do) but at least you can see the book I think would be a good resource for you, maybe you can get it at the library.
http://www.amazon.com/Coven-Craft-Witch ... 1567180183
another good one is called Wicca Covens, By Judy Harrow....this book is about forming your own group and the caveats that go with that.
BB, Firebird

[Jonjonsalinas_]

Thank you so much! And also, I hope you don't mind if I message you sometime if I ever have another question?

[Kassandra]

[Re: interview with Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone]
...we don’t separate the mundane from the magical. All life is magical...

Agreed.


.

[Lark]

Since the topic has come up, I thought it might be a good time to discuss the degree system in Wicca so that those who have not worked in a coven setting might have a better understanding of both the history of degrees and the process of earning a degree.

Let's start out by defining the term "Degree" as it is used in Wicca. Used in the manner in which it was envisioned when Wicca began, a Degree is a recognition by one's peers that a person has mastered a specific body of knowledge, that they have demonstrated ritual competence, and that they have demonstrated through the way that they live and through service to their community that they have attained a certain point in their spiritual journey that the group feels deserving of recognition.

When Wicca was created by Gerald Gardner, this definition of Wicca was used carefully to create, not a hierarchy where one is better than another, but rather a system where one could be able to know what to expect in terms of knowledge and competence in practice of anyone practicing Wicca by simply knowing what their Degree was. And in the Gardnerian Tradition, since all groups granted Degrees based on the same system, that was true then, and holds true pretty much today. In other words, if I meet someone who can legitimately claim to be a 2nd Degree Gardnerian, I would pretty well know what I could expect from them in a ritual setting.

One problem that has arisen since Wicca has strayed so far from its original roots, is that the Degree system has suffered from both a lack of understanding and from a watering down of what is expected of the Initiate earning the Degree.

In the Tradition in which I was trained, and in which I now lead my own coven, Degrees are always 'earned' through hard work and study..and through showing in the way one lives ones life that you have come to be deserving of recognition by your peers. You might like to take a look at the Student Program of our group on our website at http://www.tangledmoon.org/student_program.htm

On the other hand, there are groups out there who hand out Degrees based on how long someone has been in the group, on reading a book, even on who one is sleeping with. I remember one young man who came to us and felt that, based on his former group, he should be considered the same as one of our Third Degrees. But his program consisted solely of reading some books and taking a quiz on what he had read. He never had to actually 'DO' anything. He was not happy when we told him that we could not see that his Degree and our Degree were identical.

But this is why there is so much confusion over Degrees in the Wiccan community these days. There is no common standard by which to know how a Degree was earned or what it says about the person who claims it. And with the loss of value of a Degree, there has come the question as to whether a Degree system is merely a way of creating a hierarchy in which some are considered better than others. I can tell you in my group that having a Degree is NOT a case of being a better person or a better Witch than anyone else. What it does mean is that the person has shown the ability to do more work..and therefore we'll give them more work to do.

Because the Degree system is not clearly understood, and not well explained in most books that those just starting out on this path are apt to read, those who practice outside the coven setting often get confused about it. They feel that they either deserve a Degree through their own practice, or they feel that they won't be considered a 'real' Witch unless they have a Degree.

Neither of these concepts is valid. Taking the latter idea first...having a Degree does not make one a Witch, nor does it make one better than another just because you have a higher Degree. One receives a Degree (if done rightly) because you were showing that you were already deserving of recognition, because you were already living as our spiritual path teaches.

Secondly, if you are practicing as a solitary then Degrees are meaningless. As I have already described, a Degree represents recognition by ones peers of the mastery of a certain body of knowledge, generally that which is passed down in a particular Tradition. And a Degree is granted, not based on one's feeling that one should be given one, but based on the consideration of others of that Degree of higher. Face it, our egos often tell us that we are deserving of things that we are not. To grant oneself a Degree is to exhibit the crime of deluding oneself, of hubris.

Now some do this self-granting of Degrees out of lack of knowledge. But we also have those in the Wiccan community who do so in order to gain power, prestige, and followers. They do so in order to gain something for themselves, not to give back to the community. And those of us who do have Degrees which we worked hard to earn are on the lookout for the frauds. Not just because they are fakes, but because through their claims they cause harm to others. So if you encounter someone who claims a Degree, but whom you have some doubts about, it is never wrong to ask for credentials which can be verified. If they refuse, well then I personally would have nothing more to do with them
.
The fact that you have the same kind knowledge of as a 1st Degree in a particular group does not confer any title or rank upon you at all. It is merely a statement that you are doing the same sort of things that their students do. But to try to claim that that means you can claim a degree for yourself would be the same thing as saying to a high school drop-out that they have learned the same thing as one who stays in school and can call yourself a graduate. That may well be true, but you aren't a high school graduate until you are tested by the administration and granted that degree. And you can't go to the admissions office at a college and claim to be a graduate based on self study..you have to have that piece of paper in hand. That's how a degree system works. The degree must be conferred by a coven or it is an empty claim.