Deities and gender

[Kristofski]

I've just started reading properly into wicca, and one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the idea of the "duality" of the God and the Goddess, based on gender. Personally, I see them as two aspects of the same force, which people have divided into two using social ideas of what is masculine and feminine. Personally I find binaries in general to be very unnatural things, expecially that of gender. I know so many people who don't consider themselves to fit into either gender, or who blur the boundries either physically or mentally. I would consider myself to fall into this catagory. Is there anyone here who doesn't distinguish between the God and the Goddess? Or who has come accross anything relating to the crossing-over/removal of gender in pagan etc studies?
Chris x

[fatalism]

Some Wiccans also believe in the existence of a higher 'spirit' known popularly as Akasha, which is a combination of all of the elements. Akasha can also be considered what Taoists consider the Tao--a genderless, consciousless flow of energy (though Akasha is often given the correspondence of the angel Metatron so I don't know exactly how consciousless it really is). Many Wiccans also believe that the God and the Goddess are also manifestations of a larger 'energy' which is also genderless and probably consciousless, though perhaps not always known as Akasha. There also the existence of deities that are shapeshifters (especially the tricksters) who can shapeshift and have sex in either gender (and in a number of different species too).

Not working frequently in the Wiccan paradigm, I don't know too much about indepth Wiccan theology, but that's as much as I gathered when I researched it about 6 years ago.

[Ravenari]

It depends on your beliefs, I believe that deity is an external manifestation of energy - and not an internal - therefore the gender lines that they choose to manifest within, are the ones most appropriate to them.

Then again, the 'Enari' in the last part of my name is a play on the fox-deity Inari, who is gender ambiguous, either appearing as androgynous, male, or female, and merging between all three seamlessly. I have always been drawn to deities which cross gender lines, and appreciate the mythologies and the energy of Inari. The same goes a little for Kuan Yin, who was originally an androgynous or effeminate male god, and because of this depiction was eventually portrayed and interpreted as a 'female.'

The deities within the pantheon that I worship tend to have fixed gender, but not a fixed sexuality. But the spirit-helpers that we can work with in the otherworlds, can be anything, literally.

I think binaries can be very unhelpful, and that duality can be limiting. The answer isn't to abolish it, the answer is to be willing to look beyond the boundaries we have set for ourselves.

[[scifichick]]

Personally, I see them as two aspects of the same force, which people have divided into two using social ideas of what is masculine and feminine.

This is how I see them as well, two aspects of the same energy. I think it might be easier for some to feel closer to the gods when you can personalize them, that's why there are so many deities. But to me they are all part of one energy, just as we are part of it. I don't know how Wiccan this view is because I'm not sure if my views are exactly wiccan, but I don't really concern myself with labeling my believes.

[Kristofski]

Thanks for all your info I think the main problem was the book I'm reading on Wicca, Wicca: a Guide for the Solitary Practitioner by Scott Cunningham, really pushes the idea that the God and the Goddess are two seperate entities, and that this seperation is a "natural" thing rather than a human construct. I just had an epiphiny about this, that it's not so much about "the God" and "the Goddess", but "the God and Goddess", and that the lines between them can be drawn however I want them to, or not at all.
I know that people have probably already said this, but there is a big difference between knowing something interlectually and really knowing and feeling something
Kristofski x

[Draconis]

Pulling on socio-psychology (which i am not studying but know abit about) the human psychee creates teh ideas of masculine and feminine roles and what each should personify, if you look at most major religions (even older ones) the head honcho is usually male, or within singular deity religions it is a singular male god, eg christianity. This is done because males need to exert themselves as stronger and dominant over females, this is why the majority of major religions do not see a feminine goddess being equal or even, in some cases, superior. It is all the oldest and biggest way of patriarchal dominance over majority issues.

(I personally believe in a Symmetrical world, both feminine and masculine as equal, and incase anyone is wondering i am male, i jsut feel quite strongly on oppression, dominance and patriarchy)

[Moon_Stone]

I understand what you are saying as well, Kristofski. I do consider myself Wiccan, but I also realize that one of the most wonderful aspect of Wicca is that the path and beliefs you choose to have are yours to decide-- there are only a few core points of Wicca that need be observed, but the rest is up to you- and whatever you feel to be correct for you.

Personally, I believe in just a Goddess herself, composed of billions and billions of littler bits- each aspect, fragment, section- individual, but all encompassed in the same "Goddess". (Somewhat similar in concept to Akasha, but only in concept.) Obviously there is germination which requires male energy, there is the sun which is also a male energy versus the moon which is female. This has always kind of been a "given" for me, and I have no reason for this either- I was not raised nor taught Wicca at all.

I agree that the assignment of a gender is not entirely necessary- nor beneficial either, really- I see it more as only a requirement of the entire cycle- there can not be appropriate growth forward nor adequate balance without the merger of male and female energies.

~BB~

[Kristofski]

I agree that the assignment of a gender is not entirely necessary- nor beneficial either, really- I see it more as only a requirement of the entire cycle- there can not be appropriate growth forward nor adequate balance without the merger of male and female energies.

~BB~

I think the issue I have is that I don't see why they have to be male and female energies... I'm currently thinking of an article I may write about how the associations of the moon to femaleness/Goddess is a symptom of patriachy.... I agree that there are different kinds of energy that can be used for different things, but saying one is "male" and another "female" seemes slightly silly to me. Everyone I know has their own different energies, and I don't see seperate trends between male and female, apart from what society has put on them.
I'm tired and rambling.

[Ravenari]

I think the issue I have is that I don't see why they have to be male and female energies...

You don't have to factor them into your beliefs at all, but it's important to recognise that other people need there to be clear definitions between male and female energies, and that this belief and need serves them well and allows their spirit to grow and thrive. So while the categories do not currently, or may not ever, work for you, they are significant and relevant to others. I would not give them up for anything, even though I am more than willing to acknowledge ambiguous gender gods, and the idea of a 'frontier' where we push through the boundaries of stereotypes and categorisation.

I'm currently thinking of an article I may write about how the associations of the moon to femaleness/Goddess is a symptom of patriachy....

Why do you feel this way? I believe that the moon is a God, is this a symbol of matriarchy (in my religion) dominating the patriarchy? I would be interested to hear why you believe this.

Everyone I know has their own different energies, and I don't see seperate trends between male and female, apart from what society has put on them.

It has a lot to do with the choices we make. I can choose to deny gender, or my sex, and say that I'm of fluid gender, but at the end of the day I know in my heart that I'm not. Not because of what society has conditioned me to believe (because they did not condition me to be bisexual, or a shaman or anything. And chances are, if you break conditioning enough to be pagan, then you can break through a fair bit of conditioning), but because I know it in my heart. I am female. I respond to both male, female and gender fluid energies.

To me, the Moon is male. That works for me. That doesn't mean that I think the Moon cannot be female, but it makes the most sense to me. If everything we did was based on conditioning, I would be part of the pagan conditioning that says 'the moon is female!'

But I also need to recognise that I shouldn't push these beliefs onto others. For a start, a lot of Wiccans would get their backs up about it. And secondly, it doesn't help anyone.

Convincing us that gender boundary is not necessary in religion simply because you dont' feel it is necessary, might get a few people feeling angry that you're preaching to them about something that you believe.

While I accept that you don't need gender delineation in your deities and religion, it feels to me that you can't accept that others need it.

[Kristofski]

Why do you feel this way? I believe that the moon is a God, is this a symbol of matriarchy (in my religion) dominating the patriarchy? I would be interested to hear why you believe this.

Ok, I'll try and explain why I think this. I should say though, this is just a theory, an idea, I haven't worked it through yet, and I'm not even sure how much I adhere to it. Ok, firstly, as a very basic thing, the moon gives off no light of it's own, but instead reflects the light of the sun. The phases of the moon are simply a cause of it's relationship to the sun. This could bee seen as a reflection of how in a patriarchic society with the male as the "subject" and the female as the "object", the female is seen only as how it relates to the male. Also, people talk about the mysterious energy of the moon (though I've heard this mostly from non-pagens), and I'm not doubting this, but why should mysterious equal female? In a patriarchal society, where the world view is from a male point of view, women are going to be seen as mysterious. Where the male and male functions/thought processes are the "norm", those of the female are going to be considerd "other" and Mysterious.
As for you believeing it's the other way round, well, I just think that shows that it's not as static as people think
I hope that made some sense. My head hurts now.



Convincing us that gender boundary is not necessary in religion simply because you dont' feel it is necessary, might get a few people feeling angry that you're preaching to them about something that you believe.

While I accept that you don't need gender delineation in your deities and religion, it feels to me that you can't accept that others need it.



Strange, I thought I was insighting lively debate...

I'm sorry if people feel I'm preaching, I don't mean to do that at all. I'm simply putting forward an idea that people may not have had exposude to, living as we do in such a gender-focused society. I'm not trying to "convince" anyone, I'm just saying my opinion with the thought that maybe it will make people think about something they hadn't thought before. Also, notice that wherever I talked about things, i always said it in terms of "I think" or "I feel that". I always stated that it's my own opinion and feelings that I was trying to communicate, not that I was telling people how to think or how to work their religion. I have no problem with people recognising strong gender binaries in their spirituality, though I do have a problem when this is presented as a "natural", ridged thing that has no room for any other way of being.

Anyone who's interested in the idea of gender and spirituality, I found a couple of good articles about it here: http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a ... ay&id=3037 and here: http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a ... ay&id=9111

I hope this makes things clearer
Kristofski x

[[scifichick]]

I think that when people talk about their spiritual believes things can get pretty heated if you are not careful. When you say "Why does it have to be this way?", people who believe in "this way" can get offended. It's funny, but in that creation story that I posted, the Moon is a consort (male) to the Earth, and the Sun is also male. I think of the Moon as female probably because of the menstruation cycle (28 days as the days in the moon cycle). And I read about this correlation somewhere a long time ago. But then I can also see it as a male. The same for the sun, I normally see it as a male, but I can think of it as a female (like a warm mother's embrace).

[Ravenari]

I have no problem with people recognising strong gender binaries in their spirituality, though I do have a problem when this is presented as a "natural", ridged thing that has no room for any other way of being.

If you're not doing it already, you're awfully well-suited to gender studies at university level. *grins*

No I agree with you completely there, binaries - and rigid binaries - do need to be challenged, but I don't think it should be at the exclusion of those binaries in the first place. They are there for a reason, and sometimes it can't always just be reduced back to 'conditioning', I don't think the world is that linear or simple, but that's just how I see things.

As for the Moon, I can see where you're coming from. Though, it might be worth looking at Matriarchal cultures, or cultures that were gender-equal, which also characterised the Moon as Female and the Sun as Male.

Alright, I'm going to go off on a 'tangent' here, and discuss a bit why binaries should be challenged, or could be challenged.

Feminism is often constituted as being certain 'things' or representatives, a 'feminine' person might be gentle, vulnerable, mysterious, sensual, 'pretty', attractive or alluring, hygienic and styled, motherly, compassionate, etc. Masculinism is often constituted as also characterising certain traits, being a warrior, strength, emotional suppression, being sexual and virile, not being vulnerable or overtly 'worried' about things etc.

But gender studies, gender-queer studies, media studies, and other university level pursuits suggest that these things that we often think of as 'fixed' (i.e. a certain set of traits are exclusively feminine, and the other are masculine) are thought to be not 'fixed', and are considered to be conditioned in our western society from birth. It is an inescapable process, we cannot divorce ourself from those who have been conditioned, nor the media that surrounds us.

BUT, some inhuman studies conducted in the past have shown that if you take children out of their environment and take away natural gender conditioning, females don't always grow up to be naturally 'feminine', and males don't always grow up to be naturally 'masculine.' In other words - theoretically - what we consider to be natural manifestations of masculinity and femininity aren't actually 'natural' at all. They are not biological. They are learnt, and thus, having a God and Goddess representing these so-called 'core' aspects merely reinforces learnt behaviour, and not necessarily biological or natural behaviour.

It's a bit of a head-trip, if you spend long enough in this sort of environment, and not everyone believes in it. It's more a characteristic of post-modern belief, and modernists do not believe in it at all. There is no room for this learnt behaviour, and masculinity and femininity are natural, core systems.

That said, it is interesting to look at what we consider to be naturally feminine and masculine, and why. It's different for everyone. People in western culture who are white, middle-class, heterosexuals are likely to have very very different ideas to someone who is white, upper-class and homosexual vs. someone who is black, lower-class, Christian and lives in Africa. In other words, our environment has everything to do with how we think and believe about what is male and what is female, and what is normal.

That is why, in my culture - which originated in Russia - the Moon is considered masculine. But why in another culture, the Moon is considered feminine. And why in other cultures, the Moon may have very little significance at all when compared to say...the 'star' of Venus - which has been considered also masculine and feminine.

Every environment, and every religion, has a different set of norms and values as to what makes masculinity, and what makes femininity, and what makes sexuality. The list goes on, forever and ever, but at the end of the day if what you believe is helping you grow and learn, then chances are it's doing a good thing.

My brain is hurty now.
I've probably made other brains hurty.
*walks off rubbing hurty brain*

[[Enlightenment]]

I think that when people talk about their spiritual believes things can get pretty heated if you are not careful. When you say "Why does it have to be this way?", people who believe in "this way" can get offended. It's funny, but in that creation story that I posted, the Moon is a consort (male) to the Earth, and the Sun is also male. I think of the Moon as female probably because of the menstruation cycle (28 days as the days in the moon cycle). And I read about this correlation somewhere a long time ago. But then I can also see it as a male. The same for the sun, I normally see it as a male, but I can think of it as a female (like a warm mother's embrace).

These are my thoughts too. I can see female and male Energy in both the Moon and the Sun, but if asked, I associate the Sun with the God and Moon with the Goddess, but there is both male and female Energy in both as the Divine is neither male or female but an equal balance of both, it just is.

I also believe, each to their own and live and let live. These types of topics will never have people agreeing with each other as we each have our own thoughts and beliefs and you'd be hard pushed to sway anyone into the way you think. The one thing we can all agree on is we all find Light & Love in our beliefs.

[Lucine]

I can't remember which ancient religion had the belief that the creator had both masculine and femine traits. They were speaking of physical as well as what would be considered masculine and femine behavior. This pretty much sums up my belief on the matter as well, the creator in my view is very much androgenous.

[[ForestWitch]]

Ok, I'll try and explain why I think this. I should say though, this is just a theory, an idea, I haven't worked it through yet, and I'm not even sure how much I adhere to it. Ok, firstly, as a very basic thing, the moon gives off no light of it's own, but instead reflects the light of the sun. The phases of the moon are simply a cause of it's relationship to the sun. This could bee seen as a reflection of how in a patriarchic society with the male as the "subject" and the female as the "object", the female is seen only as how it relates to the male. Also, people talk about the mysterious energy of the moon (though I've heard this mostly from non-pagens), and I'm not doubting this, but why should mysterious equal female? In a patriarchal society, where the world view is from a male point of view, women are going to be seen as mysterious. Where the male and male functions/thought processes are the "norm", those of the female are going to be considerd "other" and Mysterious.

You certainly do make a couple of compelling arguments for how a seemingly matriarchal spirituality is influenced by subconscious patriarchal attitudes. Thought-provoking!

I personally believe that there is one Deity and no matter how s/he is named or perceived it's all a limited, human perception of the same energy/entity. Because most of us live in cultures that are still strongly divided by gender, it's helpful for most of us to perceive separate masculine and feminine energies. If it's not helpful for you, I don't see any reason in the world why you should feel obliged to see it that way.

I have just this week happened to read a whole lot of current research on gender differences in cognition and brain chemistry. Of course, there are huge differences of opinion, but one thing nearly all researchers agree on is that there are far more differences WITHIN each gender than there are between genders. I sometimes wonder whether we will someday come to see androgyny as the most normal and desirable way to be.