I have been dealing with OBE-s (out of body experiences), astral projections and lucid dreaming since i was about 13 years old. With Estonian Pagans I have discovered why astral projections and OBE are bad.
When performing them, You go out from You physical body with Your energetical body. Your energetical body protects Your physical body and Your physical body protects Your inner realm. If You go out from Your physical body with Your energetical body, then not only Your physical body is without sufficient protection at the same time, but Your inner realm is in danger too.
The nature doesn't tolerate an emty spot.
Other beings can come into Your private territory - into Your body or even into Your inner realm. That's the reason why people experience being paralyzed or see different type of beings comeing into them or people are even dieing.
People can be engaged in witchcraft without trance and going out from body, too. You can see with using a mind picture (You can watch what goes on in the mental world with open eyes too). You can use second picture, like then when You are imagining. Estonian Pagans use this method. It saves time, energy, etc.
The main reason why astral projections and OBE-s are bad
All I have to do to put myself in danger is get up in the morning. Everything has some kind of risk, like Sobek says. So, if you recognize that there is a risk you don't refuse to go outside, or eat chocolate, or drive a car. You minimize your risks by educating yourself and practicing appropriate safeguards. Granted these are not always guaranteed (I can put on a seatbelt and still get crushed by a semi on the highway) but they make your activity safer and provide you with the confidence to deal with problems that arise better than you may have otherwise. Then you can actually have a new and possibly very important and enlightening experience that you may have missed out on if you were staying in bed.
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Pakkaram
I am not talking about this here, that we shouldn't deal with things what are dangerous because they are dangerous.
For me personally, astral projection and OBE were necessary mainly to see what is going on on the mental world so I could realize my aims of the witchcraft.
I am talking about the point that why do we have to deal with things what are more dangerous, save more time, energy, etc, if we could replace them with less dangerous, less time and energy consuming, etc methods. This way we can focus more on our main aims of witchcraft. For example, we can get same information what we can get with astral frojections and OBE-s with using a mind picture or usual sleeping.
I am talking about practicality. Realization of some main aims of witchcraft are sometimes dangerous enough, why to make them even more dangerous when there is no need to and there is the better way.
For me personally, astral projection and OBE were necessary mainly to see what is going on on the mental world so I could realize my aims of the witchcraft.
I am talking about the point that why do we have to deal with things what are more dangerous, save more time, energy, etc, if we could replace them with less dangerous, less time and energy consuming, etc methods. This way we can focus more on our main aims of witchcraft. For example, we can get same information what we can get with astral frojections and OBE-s with using a mind picture or usual sleeping.
I am talking about practicality. Realization of some main aims of witchcraft are sometimes dangerous enough, why to make them even more dangerous when there is no need to and there is the better way.
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Pakkaram
I wrote about it in my first post under this thread.I hear the sound of preaching. You have your beliefs, I 'll keep mine, thanks. Though, I 'd like to hear more about your 'easier methods' and why you think projection dangerous.
But, some more about this seeing with mind picture method: You just consentrate on something on the mental level, and try to see it. You see what is going on there in Your mind picture (like then when You are imagining). So simple it is - no trance, astral projection or OBE needed.
Actually when doing this we usually use our pods. That's Your field, Your perfect part, it is everywhere, You can see everrywhere. With this method I have even described places and rooms on physical level, where I have never been before.
You said, in your first post that it's bad, you did not adequately explain this or why. I asked for more information. A definition of 'mental' and it's difference to 'spiritual' perhaps, in relation to Astral projection? Mental picturing, this sounds like bi-location[ a trance related phenomon]I'd like more iformation on this description. How do you use 'usual sleep,' instead of projection?What does that mean?[ lucid dreaming?another astral or spiritually related phenomenon]How is what you are describing different? When I 've studied Baltic and Slavic paganism, there has been a close connection to the Spiritual, the faiths seem rather sympathetically inclined and animistic. Estonian Paganism,your's, is this a 'new' religion?What is a pod? Other questions soon.
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Pakkaram
My opinion is that I explained very sufficiently why astral projection or OBE-s are bad. But, mabye my text wasn't understandable enough for You. I make my text more understandable, mabye now You got the point:
When performing them (astral projections and OBE-s), then You go out from You physical body with Your energetical body (Astral projection and OBE is going out from Your physical body with Your energetical body . Your energetical body protects Your physical body and Your physical body protects Your inner realm. If You go out from Your physical body with Your energetical body, then not only Your physical body is without sufficient protection at the same time, but Your inner realm is in danger too.
The nature doesn't tolerate an emty spot. If You are out from Your body (with energetical body) then other beings can come into Your private territory - into Your body or even into Your inner realm. That's the reason why people experience being paralyzed or see different type of beings comeing into them or people are even dieing. (thats the reason why doing astral projections and OBE-s are bad for people).
When performing them (astral projections and OBE-s), then You go out from You physical body with Your energetical body (Astral projection and OBE is going out from Your physical body with Your energetical body . Your energetical body protects Your physical body and Your physical body protects Your inner realm. If You go out from Your physical body with Your energetical body, then not only Your physical body is without sufficient protection at the same time, but Your inner realm is in danger too.
The nature doesn't tolerate an emty spot. If You are out from Your body (with energetical body) then other beings can come into Your private territory - into Your body or even into Your inner realm. That's the reason why people experience being paralyzed or see different type of beings comeing into them or people are even dieing. (thats the reason why doing astral projections and OBE-s are bad for people).
Sorry Pakkaram, I'm with Eretik on this one. You've described a risk, but you haven't said why it's supposed to be bad. These aren't the same thing.
As to mental imaging, I assume you mean either visualization or peering into the astral realm. Visualization is helpful for a lot of things but comes nowhere near actually seeing astrally. As to peeking in, again, as mentioned before, that still requires making an 'empty spot' as you put it, just perhaps not as big. And usual sleep won't give you the same results until you actively take control, which again as mentioned, is lucid dreaming and is the same idea, only perhaps with even less control than OBEs. I can dream lucidly, but many people can't. When I'm that way it takes a LOT of awareness and caution to recognize what's really going on. When you're deliberately OBE then you are there on purpose and, from my understanding, have a much higher level of control and awareness than just dreaming. But I might be way off.
As to mental imaging, I assume you mean either visualization or peering into the astral realm. Visualization is helpful for a lot of things but comes nowhere near actually seeing astrally. As to peeking in, again, as mentioned before, that still requires making an 'empty spot' as you put it, just perhaps not as big. And usual sleep won't give you the same results until you actively take control, which again as mentioned, is lucid dreaming and is the same idea, only perhaps with even less control than OBEs. I can dream lucidly, but many people can't. When I'm that way it takes a LOT of awareness and caution to recognize what's really going on. When you're deliberately OBE then you are there on purpose and, from my understanding, have a much higher level of control and awareness than just dreaming. But I might be way off.
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Awakened1
everyone leaves their body at night when they dream, Astral Plane. It isnt a bad thing, it is natural and something that can greatly increase ones spiritual awareness once they experience a conscious projection.
FEAR = False Evidence Appearing Real
Your phycical body is emmersed in the illusion of physical materiality, the energy body is the true body, spirit, light, energy whatever you want to call it
Now I am not wiccan , or pagan or any other label we humans choose to categorize ourselves in , but spiritually speaking, Astral Projection is not a bad thing, you should know how to protect and to be aware of illusion. It is a very good way for those advanced enough , let me rephrase that, AWAKE enough to meet their higher self and it is all part of the evolution of this species.
There is in "reality" no good or bad, that is duality as we percieve it in this illusion of 3D Material world.
Peace and Light
mike
FEAR = False Evidence Appearing Real
Your phycical body is emmersed in the illusion of physical materiality, the energy body is the true body, spirit, light, energy whatever you want to call it
Now I am not wiccan , or pagan or any other label we humans choose to categorize ourselves in , but spiritually speaking, Astral Projection is not a bad thing, you should know how to protect and to be aware of illusion. It is a very good way for those advanced enough , let me rephrase that, AWAKE enough to meet their higher self and it is all part of the evolution of this species.
There is in "reality" no good or bad, that is duality as we percieve it in this illusion of 3D Material world.
Peace and Light
mike
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Pakkaram
The mental world:
For me the mental world covers these realities where our subtle material parts are situated. I think it can be said that the mental world is the world of subtle material. Into the mental world belong all realities except the physical/rough material reality. But why we call it the mental world? Because our those parts that exist there, they create our mental side. Our mental side isn't situated in a brain. The brain is just like a computer and antenna what connects us with these parts. By the way I have proved that some amount of human can not situate as low as in 3 dimensional (I mean 3 room dimensions + 1 time dimension) reality. For proving this fact I used George. W.F Hegel's model. (Wolf 1991) and Tegmark's tablet (with time dimensions and spatial dimensions) (Tegmark 1997).
Seeing with mind picture method and about a pod, too:
I do not know if this bi-location[ a trance related phenomon] teaches the same thing or not (I haven't heard about this bi-location before)
How to use usual sleep instead of projection to see things or places in the mental world:
In dreams we see our lives on other levels of existence. We see what lifes our different parts are living in the mental world or our inner realms. Therefore, when You are sleeping You can see, in dreams, the same things that You can see with astral projections.
For example, our feelings and emotions do not situate in a physical body. The physical body just gives a connection with them for us. This is the reason why people when doing astral projections or seeing dreams, often feel emotions and feelings much clearly and more deeply than while being awake on physical level.
For example, in dreams we can see with who our feelings are connected with (who influences our feelings), what life our emotions live, in middle of what kind of situations our thinking lives, what surroundings surrounds our conception of the world, etc. You have many parts what live many different lifes, in order that You could exist here. Every part of You needs different surroundings (Your emotions need emotions, etc.). That’s one reason why our different parts exist on different levels of existence at the same time.
By the way, a person's pod shows dreams for him/her.
Estonain Paganism - Tokroda:
Estonain Paganism - Tokroda is created by Tokroda (Estonain Pagans' leader). Estonian Paganism is about 12 years old.
About Estonain Paganism - Tokroda You can read more here:
http://www.everythingunderthemoon.net/f ... ght=#41870
For me the mental world covers these realities where our subtle material parts are situated. I think it can be said that the mental world is the world of subtle material. Into the mental world belong all realities except the physical/rough material reality. But why we call it the mental world? Because our those parts that exist there, they create our mental side. Our mental side isn't situated in a brain. The brain is just like a computer and antenna what connects us with these parts. By the way I have proved that some amount of human can not situate as low as in 3 dimensional (I mean 3 room dimensions + 1 time dimension) reality. For proving this fact I used George. W.F Hegel's model. (Wolf 1991) and Tegmark's tablet (with time dimensions and spatial dimensions) (Tegmark 1997).
Seeing with mind picture method and about a pod, too:
Specification: A person is not only a physical body. He/she is a field too. The pod is Your field (we call it this way). Your pod is everywhere. If you want to see something in the mental world or in the physical world, then You will just have to concentrate on some thing or some place what You wish to see and You will have to try to see it in Your mind picture (like then when You are imagining). You can see it because You exist everywhere.But, some more about this seeing with mind picture method: You just consentrate on something on the mental level, and try to see it. You see what is going on there in Your mind picture (like then when You are imagining). So simple it is - no trance, astral projection or OBE needed.
Actually when doing this we usually use our pods. That's Your field, Your perfect part, it is everywhere, You can see everywhere. With this method I have even described places and rooms on physical level, where I have never been before.
I do not know if this bi-location[ a trance related phenomon] teaches the same thing or not (I haven't heard about this bi-location before)
How to use usual sleep instead of projection to see things or places in the mental world:
In dreams we see our lives on other levels of existence. We see what lifes our different parts are living in the mental world or our inner realms. Therefore, when You are sleeping You can see, in dreams, the same things that You can see with astral projections.
For example, our feelings and emotions do not situate in a physical body. The physical body just gives a connection with them for us. This is the reason why people when doing astral projections or seeing dreams, often feel emotions and feelings much clearly and more deeply than while being awake on physical level.
For example, in dreams we can see with who our feelings are connected with (who influences our feelings), what life our emotions live, in middle of what kind of situations our thinking lives, what surroundings surrounds our conception of the world, etc. You have many parts what live many different lifes, in order that You could exist here. Every part of You needs different surroundings (Your emotions need emotions, etc.). That’s one reason why our different parts exist on different levels of existence at the same time.
By the way, a person's pod shows dreams for him/her.
Estonain Paganism - Tokroda:
Estonain Paganism - Tokroda is created by Tokroda (Estonain Pagans' leader). Estonian Paganism is about 12 years old.
About Estonain Paganism - Tokroda You can read more here:
http://www.everythingunderthemoon.net/f ... ght=#41870
Shouting the same thing louder is NOT explanation. You insult my own intelligence and yours when you do that. What you are now describing [ in the later post] is astral and spiritual, you have not defined any difference between this [mental picturing] and trance states and/or lucid dreaming[usual sleep] if you don't understand why you should learn more on this. It seems you have difficulty describing what a 'mental' state is, it does involve the mind obviously,but the non-involvement of the brain and body in mentality[ of the mind, intellect,Conscious Intelligence] seems a little odd - are you saying mental activity is of the soul? If the soul or non-physical[ ethereal body,spirit form,higher self] body is invoved then surely this is 'spiritual' activity - hence interaction with/on an astral level? There are medical disorders of sleep such as Sleep Apnoea which can be fatal, in extremis. Sleep paralysis/night terrors are also related disorders, sleep disorders may sometimes have a connection to Astral activity, but are seperate 'illnesses' medically recognised and treated, not signs of the dangers of the Astral.
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Pakkaram
Thank You Sercee, now I got the point :]Sorry Pakkaram, I'm with Eretik on this one. You've described a risk, but you haven't said why it's supposed to be bad. These aren't the same thing.
As to mental imaging, I assume you mean either visualization or peering into the astral realm. Visualization is helpful for a lot of things but comes nowhere near actually seeing astrally. As to peeking in, again, as mentioned before, that still requires making an 'empty spot' as you put it, just perhaps not as big. And usual sleep won't give you the same results until you actively take control, which again as mentioned, is lucid dreaming and is the same idea, only perhaps with even less control than OBEs. I can dream lucidly, but many people can't. When I'm that way it takes a LOT of awareness and caution to recognize what's really going on. When you're deliberately OBE then you are there on purpose and, from my understanding, have a much higher level of control and awareness than just dreaming. But I might be way off.
If someone hostile get into Your body or an inner realm, then usually it instantly takes control over some amount of it. Actually this that someone hostile gets into Your inner realm is the worst thing that could happen in field of witchcraft. A person is the strongest in his/her realm, but people often make some certain mistakes, because they don't know the law of the black magic. I cant write the laws of the Raktobleer into this forum here yet, because I am not an inner circle member yet.
But I can give a link, so those who are interested can read already.
http://www.mentalworld.eu/viewtopic.php?t=49
By the way as I know, lucid dreaming, taking control in the dream doesn't create an emty spot. You just swich to Your pod (Then You experience Yourself as the pod). Just in case You are interested I say that I wrote some more about the pod in my last post.
So, pod = auric or ethereal energy field, thus using this to 'be in' is stepping outside the physical body while being conscious of doing so, during a lucid dream[ astral or etheric projection], an act of will, in the dream[ you experience yourself as the pod ] surely leaving, an empty spot in the dream, As you are now outside yourself, in the 'pod'? This is Astral projection, whether you call it so or not.
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